Science Vs. Religion

[Manga-Otaku]

Draiks statement...

Now, this is a debate that has lasted milleniums (well...no). But this time around I have a centre of controversy to allow a more heated, and synchorized debate. Big Vally Museum.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/...um-ab.html

It's a museum that says that evolution is wrong, that the whole theory of how the world came to be is wrong. That humans even walked along with dinosaurs, and that god created everything with the snap of a finger. It even goes far enough to say that some dinosaurs weren't carvnivorous. And, on top of it all, there's even a section that promotes the conecpt that science is to blame for abortion and drugs.

ANd if you think that this is unjustified, in a claim that the museum will fail and who would beleive this, then http://www.christianpost.com/article/200...ution.htm

"In a June 1-3 poll, 66 percent of U.S. citizens said they believe in creationism (39 percent “definitely true” and 27 percent “probably true”) while only 53 percent of Americans say they believe in evolution (18 percent “definitely true” and 35 percent “probably true.”)."

Hmm..interesting. What about reincarnation? Or cloning? Any idea's?

[MangaAddict]

In a book called Darwins Black Box, a biologist says that evolution and natural selection and all that is reasonable at the macro level. But he says that at the micro level there are some things that cant be explained and are too complex and thats why he believes in intelligent design. This is coming from a guy who has spent his entire life working on biology and cells and all that scientific junk...

[Excel-Kleinwald]

I wish he would be more specific...

I believe in both intelligent design and evolution.

[MangaAddict]

Im agnostic so I dont really know what I believe in. I do believe in evolution though. I cant say I believe in the bible or any other holy text but the fact that so many have faith in them and believe in miracles makes me wonder if maybe there is a god... However, because Ive never seen a miracle and because I see so many terrible things I cant fully believe in a god.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

I hate it when I hear that people don't believe in god because of all the terrible things in the world. Why is it his job to meddle in our affairs? I think that a god is up there just relazing after creating us letting us go on with our lives without interfering.

[MangaAddict]

And letting his people suffer?? Why create something if you dont take responsibilty for it?? Okay that sounded kinda weird....
But why would he create us only to make us sad and fend for ourselves? Why should we be unhappy?

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Why should we be happy? I am sure that the god doesn't want us to be unhappy, but I also think that it would want us to do everything on our own. Remember we aren't the only ones it would have created, this god created the whole world, all of the plant life, all of the animals, everything and possibly even other planets out there. Why should we be special enough to have help when we have the ability to have happy lives all on our own. It is not some unknown force making us unhappy, it is humans making other humans unhappy.

[Megabuster]

I agree with E-K for once, he is on to something god isnt our baby sitter he doesnt have to do anything for us because he already gave us life. Be that as it may im still agnostic because well there is no reason to believe the evil that is the catholic church.

[MangaAddict]

If god created everything then he is all powerful and should have predicted that we would make each other unhappy. Unless hes a frankenstein and just abandoned us, he should be doing everything to make us happy or at least reward those who do great things for others from time to time...

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Why should he do these things? Is there some great law that says what god should do? Whoare you to question the motives a supreme all powerful being? We cannot see the future, for all we know god has a master plan for us to follow, which we are following right now that will lead us to true happiness in the end.

[MangaAddict]

How do we know we are being led to true happiness?? For all we know we could all be screwed to eternal hell. We have nothing to truly have faith in. The bible, sure, but that was created so long ago by people who compared to us are stupid. We dont know if thats real or not. How are we supposed to have faith if god doesnt at least show us something or give us some sort of reassurance for a better life.

[mexicanopunk]

umm manga buster the catholic church isnt evil
how is it evil its the root christianity religions like luthernism, baptist, and protestant
soo ur sayn all these religions are evil

[Excel-Kleinwald]

That's the thing with faith, faith is believing. If you cannot believe then you can't, if you can believe then you can. The thing about religion is that it is blind faith, whether you want to put all of your faith into a belief is your choice, but we will probably never know whether one way is true or the other.

[MangaAddict]

That's the thing with faith, faith is believing. If you cannot believe then you can't, if you can believe then you can. The thing about religion is that it is blind faith, whether you want to put all of your faith into a belief is your choice, but we will probably never know whether one way is true or the other.

So if you are a good person and you do great things but you dont believ in god then what??

[Megabuster]

umm manga buster the catholic church isnt evil
how is it evil its the root christianity religions like luthernism, baptist, and protestant
soo ur sayn all these religions are evil

The pope just said like a week ago that all other churches were false, not only that it is natural for a super power like the church to be crazy corrupt. But that aside anything that forces you to live your life a certain way and says that if you do you go to heaven is wrong. Just because my beliefs differ from the churches doesnt mean i will go to hell and if so that means every homosexuel will also.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

We don't know, that is what I was saying about faith, you just have to believe. You don't know if you're right or wrong, you don't know if another path is better than another you just have to trust your own decisions. I can't say what will happen because that is not my right, because I don't know. I am just trying to debate another side of things.

[SilverKunai]

There are things in life we can't control. We could believe whether god or nature is the cause...There are many beliefs, and not all of them are true. Some are just magical. Faith could have a part in life. No. It does so do we use faith to decide?

[Megabuster]

I wasnt sure you were trying to say in relation to the what was said earlier in the discussion but where does that put good people who dont believe in god or are agnostic.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Good people who don't believe in god are just like good people who do believe in god. If you are good to everyone you can be friends with everyone. It is my belief that you shouldn't live life just to go to heaven, that is living for death! I say be a good person and your life will turn out good, there is nothing wrong with that.

[mexicanopunk]

every religion has corruption
not juss catholicism
the new pope isnt soo good
what did u think of the last pope
he tried 2 make peace with other religions

[SilverKunai]

Its pretty much about connections with people. If you connect to drug lords, etc etc, you get on their bad side and poof. You end up dead. If you live in a good way and in happiness, you will get happiness in return. So life is just how we live it.

You make your life suck. Not others.

[Megabuster]

Good people who don't believe in god are just like good people who do believe in god. If you are good to everyone you can be friends with everyone. It is my belief that you shouldn't live life just to go to heaven, that is living for death! I say be a good person and your life will turn out good, there is nothing wrong with that.

Thats the problem with the catholic religion the only reason they are good is to get into heaven, it shouldnt be like that.

On a side note if there is a god do you think that he is completley good? I dont believe anything is completly good or completely evil so just asking?

[Raijuu]

........ well the devil suppose to be the evil and "god" is good so i think the people begins to believe the good side which is god..... i dont know this is just so complicated.....

[Excel-Kleinwald]

You know, there was something I always thought would be kinda funny... if somehow there was a m ixup in the bible and we are actually worshipping the devil and hating god...

[Megabuster]

You know, there was something I always thought would be kinda funny... if somehow there was a m ixup in the bible and we are actually worshipping the devil and hating god...

My friend made a whole story about that in english class.

[SilverKunai]

.....wouldn't that suck...

[Kay]

well some ppl does worship devil and etc...back to the topic....without religion we will become undiscipline and unmoral scoundrel that cause mischief all around the world without thinking the result of it....without science...we are just plain ape...that got evolve...yea...live like animal...etc... conclusion....balancing it will bring harmony but if unblance...you think bout it yourselve

[DisturbedMind]

My personal belief is that the two, religion(or faith) and evolution (natural selection), are not mutually exclusive. If looked at appropriately, they actually can reinforce each other. I believe in God, but not in organized religion. Anyone who refuses to try and reconcile the two, generally are afraid of what anbswers they might find inside of themselves. As far as organized religion, anyone who says I need to go to a specific building, give them money, and follow their rules is not on my list of honorable people. I cannot imagine life without God....but I dream of a world without a church/mosque/synegogue.

[YunalescaX]

Ummm...
I think it goes religion first before science...
I don't know, dis is what I think... T_______T.

[Kay]

well do you know the dark ages during the 15th-18 century(not sure which one) at europe? because lack of science plus everyone at that time misuing their power...everything grow slow but since the islam country during that time gain too much information,they enhance their technology to the fullest

[MangaAddict]

well some ppl does worship devil and etc...back to the topic....without religion we will become undiscipline and unmoral scoundrel that cause mischief all around the world without thinking the result of it....without science...we are just plain ape...that got evolve...yea...live like animal...etc... conclusion....balancing it will bring harmony but if unblance...you think bout it yourselve

But atheists have morals too so religion doesnt garantee if a person will be good or not...

[DisturbedMind]

and some religious leaders have been some of the most immoral people the world has ever seen.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Exactly, look at the pope. He may seem as a person who can "do no wrong" and is "infallible" because he has been elected to be so. But there used to be a time where the Vatican was practically a brothel.

But when you look at it, harcore religious believers will not listen to any sort of reason because of how blindly they follow their religion and don't want to believe anything that could force what they believe to be wrong. Scientists are the exact same way. They try to force that everything needs to be understood by the human brain for it to be real and cannot accept anything they can't prove themselves and leave absolutely nothing up to faith. I just wish they could fuse together into some sort of super understanding being with all of the answers to the universe.

[DisturbedMind]

Exactly, look at the pope. He may seem as a person who can "do no wrong" and is "infallible" because he has been elected to be so. But there used to be a time where the Vatican was practically a brothel.

But when you look at it, harcore religious believers will not listen to any sort of reason because of how blindly they follow their religion and don't want to believe anything that could force what they believe to be wrong. Scientists are the exact same way. They try to force that everything needs to be understood by the human brain for it to be real and cannot accept anything they can't prove themselves and leave absolutely nothing up to faith. I just wish they could fuse together into some sort of super understanding being with all of the answers to the universe.

Well, here I am, the super understanding being.....lol. And to a point some scientists are worse than religious zealots, b/c they don't have the sense to see when the are overstepping their bounds.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

So you're a christian scientist?! Sorry... just a joke didn't mean to insult you ;)

[DisturbedMind]

no I'm not...but thanks for asking....lol. I'm not anything that is affiliated with any religious group. And I know too many "scientists" who can't think outside what some instructor told them. They can't think for themselves and cite "consensus" findings. The only problem is that "consensus" is the absence of science, b/c science is based on questioning the accepted norms....so they cannot exist together.

[Kay]

But atheists have morals too so religion doesnt garantee if a person will be good or not...

liek i say,back in those old ages...nowaday ppl still believe in god but not that strong since as our science is improving....god stay in heaven which is at the cloud.....but heck we didnt find god above the clloud...

[Excel-Kleinwald]

People believing in god does not matter in the improvement of scientific understanding and technological improvement.

[DisturbedMind]

science is the answer to how the world works, but faith in a higher being is the answer to why the world world works....these two questions, I believe, get confused sometomes...and that is where the conflict arises.

[frost city]

Why do so many people think that science and religion are opposites? XD What's wrong with accepting both?

[Sniper]

They pretty much are. Science is the study of facts and finding proof that certain things are true. Religion is based around faith and believing in a higher power regardless of what the facts say. Religion is good for morals, but not for actual facts. While it's true that scientists can sometimes overstep moral boundaries, they generally don't. Religious nuts can cause just as many problems.

[flamboozie]

all i kno about science vs religion is we were not created from evolution. come on do u really think u came from a monkey? if u believe in evolution u may not kno it but u do indeed have a religion its called stupidism.
i rufuse to believe my ancestors r monkeys!

[Lemurcoon]

I believe in science we did evolve we have proof caveman those were our ancestors maybe they were monkeys or reptiles before they evolved but i also believe we also have a creator who created the beings who evolved into man but i don't believe in religion all these story's of our creator being such a being who descended from somewhere and showed him self to a certain race all these different descriptions of our creator what does he change his actual form not to alert us or to pit us against each other does he tell his people to build worshiping grounds for all to bow down to him and pay tribute in the form of money because they all say it is to help our creator how is money gonna help him so he can buy himself a new pair of shoes yeah cause he needs a new pair of nikes . of course the money goes to these worshiping grounds so they can build more worshiping grounds and try to expand thier influence so yeah thats my argument

[frost city]

I suppose it all depends on which religion you're affiliated with. :/

For example, I'm Muslim. In Islam, you're obligated to seek knowledge, especially scientific knowledge.

I admit that I don't know much about other religions.

[Geyter]

You know i had this awful thought once, that the spaceprogram was God's idea because he wants to spread his religion and conquer other planets....

And i don't believe in God. Not even the tiniest bit. I just can't help it, i haven't believed in him since i was 8 years old.
But then again i was always a skeptical child. I stopped believing in santa when i was 6. It drove my parents crazy.

If i would have to put my fate in any religion, i guess i would have to go for boedhism. Because that's the only one where you can actually see it work, you know? By meditation it is indeed possible to get to a higher plane of reasoning, we have done this for thousands of years. But by praying? Don't think so.

PS: Is there anybody else that is totally creeped out by priests? (and clowns). And don't look at me like i'm the only one, a lot of people in Europe will never leave their kids alone with a priest. (not even close to kidding)

[Sniper]

all i kno about science vs religion is we were not created from evolution. come on do u really think u came from a monkey? if u believe in evolution u may not kno it but u do indeed have a religion its called stupidism.
i rufuse to believe my ancestors r monkeys!

Ignoring the fact that this is a grammatical train wreck, this is one of the cases I was talking about. Ignoring the mountains of evidence supporting evolution, the fact that we have actually witnessed evolution occur in bacteria in labs, and the fact that it makes sense if you think about it logically, you instead chose to blindly follow the leader. I can respect your opinions, but what gets me is the statement "i rufuse to believe my ancestors r monkeys!" This shows that you haven't and won't even consider the idea enough to research it. You just ignore what anyone tells you and instead put stock in the magic man in the sky, for which there is no proof. You should at least try and have an open mind about this. "come on do u really think u came from a monkey" is not going to convince me that I'm wrong. It's not even an argument. Next time, pay attention in your science class before posting here.

Oh, and Geyter, it's spelled Buddhism. Just for future reference. I like that religion too. One of the few religions that's actually peaceful.

[Geyter]

Huh yeah, i seemed to have combined the dutch with the english there. Oh well, it's niet like ik doe that al de time.

Btw i love the fact that you wrote "it spelled buddhism". lol correcting and getting it wrong at the same time.

[Sniper]

it's niet like ik doe that al de time.

Well, that was hard to read:p

Btw i love the fact that you wrote "it spelled buddhism". lol correcting and getting it wrong at the same time.

Um, no, Buddhism is right...

[Geyter]

"Saxon genitive" is the traditional term used for the ’s (apostrophe-s) word-ending in the English language. The term is now infrequently used by linguists who argue that ’s represents a possessive case, not a genitive.

Uh well, you know. "it's spelled" or "it is spelled"...
Can we go back on topic now?

[Sniper]

Oh, I see what you're saying. I forgot the " 's", I didn't spell Buddhism wrong.:p Oops.

Anyways, yeah, Science is pretty much always right once the testing is done. Science is always based on facts, so anything that's an accepted truth throughout the scientific community is probably right.

[Geyter]

The problem is, most of science is also founded on faith. Because something is only right until it is proven wrong most of the time.
I mean, in the days of the Curies scientists were convinced that plutonium was a cure for every known disease. They used to wear it around their necks and drink it. Until there teeth fell out and there bones were hollowed out...
Same with those treebranches (don't know the english name for em) the romans used to cure toothpains. Scientist said those were heathen tools and leaches and bleedings worked a lot better. Until later scientists rediscovered the branches and created aspirin because of em...

See this is the problem with saying science is 100% right. You just can't know it for sure.
That said, at least scientist try to prove it. Unlike religious folk who generally would rather poke out their own eyes than research anything they preach.

[DisturbedMind]

Oh, I see what you're saying. I forgot the " 's", I didn't spell Buddhism wrong.:p Oops.

Anyways, yeah, Science is pretty much always right once the testing is done. Science is always based on facts, so anything that's an accepted truth throughout the scientific community is probably right.

the phrase "accepted truth" should be a giveaway that it isn't science. Science isn't about accepting anything. It is about a theory standing up to intense objections and testing. If accepted truth were the basis of science then the world would be flat, and the universe would revolve around the earth. It took longer than a bunch of scientists saying gravity is this, before Newton's gravitational theories became laws. And what I meant was that scientists get too full of themselves as being better/smarter than others, and cause a scare like the impending Ice Age we were all promised would happen within 20-30 years......that was in the mid 1970's. Kinda funny how a consensus of scientists with an accepted truth can be just a little bit off.

[Vermillius]

Science and religion are diametrically opposed...one is based on faith...and one is in theory based on trial and error. Modern science is not as accurate as a lot of pro-science Atheists would like to believe...and religion is only practical if a person completely believes in it...otherwise they are a hypocrite.

[Sniper]

Well said. Science is not based on faith, Geyter. It's the opposite of what you said. Something is wrong until it is proven right. That's the general theory of science. There have been plenty of mistakes made in the past, and I'm sure there are assumptions being made now, but it's still more accurate than religion.

DisturbedMind, I said accepted in the SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY. That means a majority of scientists agree that the theory is most likely correct. Most scientists would not agree with something unless a resonable amount of testing and experimentation had been performed and proved that it was right.

Vermillius's post pretty much sums up my opinions.

[Black Cat]

I believe that the bible is just a fictional book like harry potter. I'm an athiest so i strongly believe science. ^^

[Sniper]

Well, some Bible stories are based on fact. I agree though, most Bible stories are fiction or at least exaggerations in order to teach us morals and the like.

[israellaa__x3]

Yes, I believe intelligent design and evolution could work together; we don't know. And please don't say that you know.

Are we discussing religion in general, or Christianity/Catholicism? Not all world religions go by the Bible.

I do have my doubts when something is 'accepted by the scientific community'. Chances are, it's going to be proved wrong sooner or later, as it has been in the past.

Oh well, deal with it. True or not.

Actually, what is science? In your words..

[flamboozie]

I believe in science we did evolve we have proof caveman those were our ancestors maybe they were monkeys or reptiles before they evolved but i also believe we also have a creator who created the beings who evolved into man but i don't believe in religion all these story's of our creator being such a being who descended from somewhere and showed him self to a certain race all these different descriptions of our creator what does he change his actual form not to alert us or to pit us against each other does he tell his people to build worshiping grounds for all to bow down to him and pay tribute in the form of money because they all say it is to help our creator how is money gonna help him so he can buy himself a new pair of shoes yeah cause he needs a new pair of nikes . of course the money goes to these worshiping grounds so they can build more worshiping grounds and try to expand thier influence so yeah thats my argument

plz give me proof that i am related to a dead monkey right now! also if we did evolve how come we arent still evolving? and dont even say we are because you have no way to prove it! but hey lets pretend for a second that i did evolve from a monkey. ok i am related to a dead monkey. wat did the monkey evolve from? and wat did that evolve from? and so on and so forth. youd eventually run out oforganisms. (dont try to say we evolved from rocks because i hope we all kno life only comes from life) once you run out of organisms i wanna know, if they didnt evolve from any thing where did they come from? well you get the point. there really isnt any solid evidence to prove evolution, well at least that i kno of. if u have any plz tell me. i can probly find a way to prove u wrong.

[Raijuu]

aahhh you know that happened like 10000 years ago right?
and people have found bones of people that looked like us and monkeys at the same time... but w/e.... also umm the people are evolving in knowledge and i think something has to happen if we want to evolve physicaly.... like a change of climate or something....

[flamboozie]

aahhh you know that happened like 10000 years ago right?
and people have found bones of people that looked like us and monkeys at the same time... but w/e.... also umm the people are evolving in knowledge and i think something has to happen if we want to evolve physicaly.... like a change of climate or something....

so your saying it got hot one day so decided to get rid of our fur?

and another thing i could find a marble in pile of legos but that doesnt mean the lego decided to become round one day.

there elements and materials that are needed to make life. if those materials and elements and particles were to all come together the exact right way (yes they have to be put together in a right order) do u know wat the chances of that happening are? well lets just say %99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999999999999999999999 (ok i think i went overboard with the nines) chance that they would never come together (not including the right order) so yes there is a very slight chance evolution could happen. but if u believe in evolution u believe ur life let alone everyone elses life happened by accidental chance, i dont think i could live my life believing that not only me but everyone around me happened on accident. if evolution did occur though, there had to have been an intelligence behind it all. well if u ask me. science and religion r 2 sides of the same coin.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

plz give me proof that i am related to a dead monkey right now! also if we did evolve how come we arent still evolving? and dont even say we are because you have no way to prove it! but hey lets pretend for a second that i did evolve from a monkey. ok i am related to a dead monkey. wat did the monkey evolve from? and wat did that evolve from? and so on and so forth. youd eventually run out oforganisms. (dont try to say we evolved from rocks because i hope we all kno life only comes from life) once you run out of organisms i wanna know, if they didnt evolve from any thing where did they come from? well you get the point. there really isnt any solid evidence to prove evolution, well at least that i kno of. if u have any plz tell me. i can probly find a way to prove u wrong.

So many red underlines... anywho...

You can't say that we aren't evolving right now because evolution isn't a split second thing that happens instantly, it takes years of adaptation, breeding, and more adaptation. That is how we have such widely different breeds of dogs is because we forced them to evolve to fit our needs. And the reason why it is so commonly believed that we have evolved from "monkeys"? Because of the similar DNA pattern between the two species of primates, although there are many different races of monkeys I believe we are closely related to the chimnpanzee but I am only assuming here. Anyway, if you were to look back at the race of humans in the years you can notice immense changes. This includes but is not limited to: height, age, finger and toe length. Now about your theory of where we eventually came from? You are right, life can only come from life. Now there are plenty of theories on the origin of life that you can find here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life#Autocatalysis. The theory I am prone to believe if I were to remember it all correctly is this. That in the early structure of earth, before any landmasses were formed it was all water. Now I can't remember it all exactly because I didn't take notes in science class :P but lightning struck into the water and some reaction happened and life was formed and we eventually grew from a single celled organism to more complex creatures and eventually left the water, while others stayed and much variation occured. Evolution is a theory, therefore it is not a proven fact. You know what else is not a proven fact? God. The reason why so many people believe in Evolution? Because there is more evidence to support it than just... believing in god.

[flamboozie]

So many red underlines... anywho...

You can't say that we aren't evolving right now because evolution isn't a split second thing that happens instantly, it takes years of adaptation, breeding, and more adaptation. That is how we have such widely different breeds of dogs is because we forced them to evolve to fit our needs. And the reason why it is so commonly believed that we have evolved from "monkeys"? Because of the similar DNA pattern between the two species of primates, although there are many different races of monkeys I believe we are closely related to the chimnpanzee but I am only assuming here. Anyway, if you were to look back at the race of humans in the years you can notice immense changes. This includes but is not limited to: height, age, finger and toe length. Now about your theory of where we eventually came from? You are right, life can only come from life. Now there are plenty of theories on the origin of life that you can find here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life#Autocatalysis. The theory I am prone to believe if I were to remember it all correctly is this. That in the early structure of earth, before any landmasses were formed it was all water. Now I can't remember it all exactly because I didn't take notes in science class :P but lightning struck into the water and some reaction happened and life was formed and we eventually grew from a single celled organism to more complex creatures and eventually left the water, while others stayed and much variation occured. Evolution is a theory, therefore it is not a proven fact. You know what else is not a proven fact? God. The reason why so many people believe in Evolution? Because there is more evidence to support it than just... believing in god.

your right that god is not a proven fact, but i thought we were in agreement with life only comes from life. lighting and water arent organisms. try to find a better theory.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Like I said, I forget how exactly it happened, but there was some form of reaction that formed a single celled organism, like an amoeba.

[MangaAddict]

We came from elements and stuff. Sorry Im not good at science but I remember quite clearly that life was created from non life.

[flamboozie]

We came from elements and stuff. Sorry Im not good at science but I remember quite clearly that life was created from non life.

ask any scientist creationist or evolutionist they will both tell u life only comes from life

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Yeah, and life had to start somewhere, and the planet earth didn't begin at the beginning of time or whatever, it was slowly created with absolutely nothing on it. And don't try to say life came from god now, because god isn't necessarily life either now is it?

[MangaAddict]

Before the big bang when gasses and junk were all scrunched into a little ball (yes, a theory but a well respected one) you are telling me that there was life in there? And if thats the case then there is life on other planets too...

[flamboozie]

Before the big bang when gasses and junk were all scrunched into a little ball (yes, a theory but a well respected one) you are telling me that there was life in there? And if thats the case then there is life on other planets too...

now theres where scientists make up crap like all the elements came together to make an organism, or god did it!
look to me right now science is just a pain in the *** class i have to take so i am leaving this thread. i dont know how the earth was made how life began the only thing i know is that i dont believe i am the decendant of a monkey. but to each his own i guess. good bye

[Excel-Kleinwald]

If you think Science is just a pain in the *** class you're wrong, Science is the study of what goes on in the universe and we use it to get a better understanding of what we live in. Without scientists and forward thinkers we wouldn't be very advanced at all because we wouldn't have any idea of how to advance our technology.

[MangaAddict]

I gotta agree. I think I believe in science more than religion anyway. Maybe its because there is actual evidence... But it isnt worthless...
I think you scared him away Excel :)

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Well the fact that he doesn't care about the position he takes is just another way to prove someone wrong in a debate.

[Tru Grave]

both religion and Science are (as of yet) based on our perception of how and why things happen and what happens in response, everything is based on our perceptions no matter what it is, this leads to conflict when ever there is more than 1 person, both science and religion are our answers to questions we have and we belive these are the correct answers because they are based on our perceptions. this applies to those in all religions and those who say they don't belive, at least that is my opinion. (for what little it counts for)

[Yux]

OOOOOK Q. & A. timeXD
Earlier post (http://forum.onemanga.com/showpost.php?p=18571&postcount=7)
Q. Why doesn't god help the weak
A. He created us to live its our own imperfections that cause others to be weak why seek power? whats it good for? People complain about not getting a job because of "this" or "that" but where they should be pointing is inward. Did the creator of Walmart need to be smart? To a certain extent yes but just enough to have common sense. Do you need money to live? No i could live in a forest with no money. As for the poor people that simply starve to death they should find little food to survive I'm not trying to be mean but if i was born there id raise myself high enough to be heard and live on until our sure death. But if you believe in Jesus our lord as a savior then you'll be saved and once again live on.

Any Q.'s?

[Sniper]

You know what? I'm SICK and TIRED of people forcing me to try and prove to them that evolution is right if they'll just disregard every piece of evidence I list as false due to some obscure bit that I didn't include. Life came from elements, particularly carbon, fusing and bonding in ways that allowed for single-celled organisms to exist. Elements bond in new ways all the time. Want an example? Coal, through intense heat and pressure, turns into diamond over time due to it's chemical structure bonding in new ways.

No matter how unlikely evolution is, it's more likely than a giant Dumbledore sitting in the clouds and just snapping things into existance. It's about time people prove to me why God is correct. You just believe some 1000 year old book with hundreds of different authors has magically unlocked the secrets of the universe? Please explain to me the logic in that. I've read Grimm's Fairy Tales, yet I don't go wishing that my Fairy Godmother will come down and make my dreams come true. Why do you?

After some thought, I believe this deserves it's own topic. I'm going to start a thread where we can focus on evolution so we don't let it monopolize this thread. Any further debate on this subject should take place in that.

[Yux]

You know what? I'm SICK and TIRED of people forcing me to try and prove to them that evolution is right if they'll just disregard every piece of evidence I list as false due to some obscure bit that I didn't include. Life came from elements, particularly carbon, fusing and bonding in ways that allowed for single-celled organisms to exist. Elements bond in new ways all the time. Want an example? Coal, through intense heat and pressure, turns into diamond over time due to it's chemical structure bonding in new ways.

No matter how unlikely evolution is, it's more likely than a giant Dumbledore sitting in the clouds and just snapping things into existance. It's about time people prove to me why God is correct. You just believe some 1000 year old book with hundreds of different authors has magically unlocked the secrets of the universe? Please explain to me the logic in that. I've read Grimm's Fairy Tales, yet I don't go wishing that my Fairy Godmother will come down and make my dreams come true. Why do you?

After some thought, I believe this deserves it's own topic. I'm going to start a thread where we can focus on evolution so we don't let it monopolize this thread. Any further debate on this subject should take place in that.

Life is full of unexplained things dose science explain dreams? no you can take a guess like -its a serios of shocks in your brain that w/e- so what your saying is that you have found what a soul is made out of and you can make one and put it in a body you also made from regular items? I would like you to show me this then -.-

[Sniper]

Actually, science can explain dreams. I'm no brain surgeon, but I've read that it's your brain performing checks on itself. It goes over the day's events to make sure it's memory and such is working properly. This appears to you in the form of a dream. Now I'm sure there's much more to it than that, but the fact remains that we have found that much out.

Now we have yet to find any evidence of a soul. I personally don't believe that souls exist. It's just another term for conciousness.

[LlorshCrespo]

I really think that science cant explain all, and I like belive in a god that protect us all, I really dont believe in church and stuff , and I really scare thinking that death es the end of myself :(

[Yux]

who cares what you call it and half the stuff your saying is "theories" which people come up with... Like how the universe was made theres so many theories i just done care anymore. The FACTS are that even if you make a body it wont move if we could do that then no one would die in a hospital now would they? we could give them a hole new life at age 1 with the same memories but we can't breath life into something just from "carbon" you have nothing that backs up your "theories" but more "theories" see i'll tell you something you probably don't know... Most scientists don't believe half of what's coming out of there mouths be cause the fact is is that they get paid more saying Tomato than Tomatoe...

[Tru Grave]

You know what? I'm SICK and TIRED of people forcing me to try and prove to them that evolution is right if they'll just disregard every piece of evidence I list as false due to some obscure bit that I didn't include. Life came from elements, particularly carbon, fusing and bonding in ways that allowed for single-celled organisms to exist. Elements bond in new ways all the time. Want an example? Coal, through intense heat and pressure, turns into diamond over time due to it's chemical structure bonding in new ways.

No matter how unlikely evolution is, it's more likely than a giant Dumbledore sitting in the clouds and just snapping things into existance. It's about time people prove to me why God is correct. You just believe some 1000 year old book with hundreds of different authors has magically unlocked the secrets of the universe? Please explain to me the logic in that. I've read Grimm's Fairy Tales, yet I don't go wishing that my Fairy Godmother will come down and make my dreams come true. Why do you?

After some thought, I believe this deserves it's own topic. I'm going to start a thread where we can focus on evolution so we don't let it monopolize this thread. Any further debate on this subject should take place in that.

first off as i remember it the elements are only the building blocks of life.

second i can not percive any problems with the word of god just the people the supposed words come out of, after all word have had the power to sway millions of people for quitesome time now. if some1 were to claim that they heard the voice of god/deitie(s) they would probably be considered psycotic and thrown into a mental institutuion so how would the founders of those religions (prophets/"demigods") be considerd today?

third even if god is extreamly unlikely who among us can say with certinty that there is a god, you can only belive in him. also whos to say that god isn't just a higher life form we cannot truly percive. after all we were not the first life forms bacteria were, there for whos to say something older didn't help along the evolutionary process, that would have made things much easier



who cares what you call it and half the stuff your saying is "theories" which people come up with... Like how the universe was made theres so many theories i just done care anymore. The FACTS are that even if you make a body it wont move if we could do that then no one would die in a hospital now would they? we could give them a hole new life at age 1 with the same memories but we can't breath life into something just from "carbon" you have nothing that backs up your "theories" but more "theories" see i'll tell you something you probably don't know... Most scientists don't believe half of what's coming out of there mouths be cause the fact is is that they get paid more saying Tomato than Tomatoe...

the only thing we have are theories, even religion is a theory as such even your last point is your perception that that is a bad thing, and my peception of science is that they are supposed to challange our perceptions of how and what the universe is and does

[TeaPot]

of course evrything is still a theory, but i tend to believe in something that is at least logic. so , im more into science, because throughout ages religion was nothing more than propaganda, and even now when i go to church(thats only an example) i think of it not like of holy place but more like money washing mashine.
whats more, i like politeism better, because it was more like just revering nature powers, but thats a defferent story:D

BTW, i totaly agree with Sniper

[Sniper]

BTW, i totaly agree with Sniper

It's ironic that your avatar says "God.":p

Anyways, yes everything it theories, but at least there's some logical and PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE explination behind them. The reason there can't be some higher power is because it goes completely against all logic and against the realm of possibility. No matter how unlikely some scientific theories may be, they're still more likely than the earth being made in 7 days by the great Dumbledore in the clouds. People think that God is a simple explantaion, but there's nothing ever in history that's more complex. Saying "God did it" raises infinitely more questions than it solves, like where did God come from? How did he do it? Where is he now?

Sorry if I seem a little angry or something, I get really into these kind of things. I'm not really mad.;)

[DisturbedMind]

Yes, I have been critical of religion and science on this thread, and most of my thoughts were entirely misunderstood. So, in hopes of clarifying my position, here is a bullet point list of what I was trying to say.

1)Scientists are egotistical, self-centered, and stubborn. If they "believe" that the world works a certain way, then they can spend their lives trying to prove their theories, and if they do a good enough job in promoting their theories then others join in and a scientific consensus is made. There are people who were killed for believing that the earth revolved around the sun....and they had hard, irrefutable evidence to the contrary, which is what science should be based on. If there are any other, and I mean absolutely any, theories which fit the data, then it cannot be considered more than one persons "good idea", hypothesis, or "educated guess."
2) Reglion is only as useful and good as those leading and being led. Religion can be a force for good, such as feeding the poor, clothing the needy, and giving those les fortunate a place to sleep through freezing nights. Religion can also be evil, such as when certain religious leaders demand that their followers blow themselves up in suicide bombings whose only goal is to kill innocent individuals. I know many muslims, but not a one feels that it is their religious duty to destroy the infidels by beheading and blowing up innocent civilians. That, according to some of their religious leaders, is worthy of them to be beheaded. So, factions of the same faith can see their place as separate from others reading the same book. Meaning that it is the interpretation of the meaning, not the words in the text, which defines religions importance and usefulness.
3) here is how religion and science work together. The basis for this theory of mine, yes I'll admit it is a theory (I'm not above my own rules), is that using newtons laws of motion (an object at rest, tends to stay at rest, unless acted upon by an outside force) the universe should mot exist. Because the best theory achieved comes from scientists is the Big Bang, the question arises, "What made the initial explosion happen?" Or another way to say it would be why did the Big Bang happen anyway? My answer would be that it was the hand of God. If there was no "First Mover" then the universe would still just be the infinitely dense ball of mass. It is this "first mover" which applied the energy necessary to initiate the Big Bang chain reaction. As far as the evolution of humanity, and all life, if you just take the "days" mentioned in Genesis, and instead of the human 24 hr day, think abstractly as a day to God, then evolution easily fits. Because to God, remember he was supposedly being quoted, what is one day to a being who has lived for longer than the beginning of the universe, might actually be millions, or billions of years.
4) That being said, God could be a construct to explain those items, and observations, in nature/space that we, as humans, cannot explain. But it is up to the individual to decide whether 3) or 4) apply to their outlook on life, and to respect the fact that just because they see it that way (and most believe it is obvious), others will feel that way about the other ways. So to really progress as the human race, we need to come to terms with the fact that just because we "know" we are right, the reality may be that what we "know" is actually wrong.

I hope that this makes some sense. I realize that I don't say which is right...and that is the point. No one will know who is correct until the day they die. Personally, I like the idea that someone is out there, watching our progress, keeping their distance, allowing humanity to exercise the free will given them by the "First Mover." I believe that the omniscience of God could foretell the direction of the universe to the point of creating life, so his only necessary act would be the initiation of the big bang. In short, we are God's ultimate reality TV show.

[Sniper]

Very nicely put. Well said indeed. I agree for the most part. I think calling scientists "egotistical, self-centered, and stubborn" is a vague generalization, but I can see where you come from. As for the whole God thing, I'm an athiest so I don't believe, but it's a good compromise. It makes sense. Finally, my theory on the Big Bang (cool scientific name, huh?) is that gravity continuously compressed the matter until eventually some chemical combined or some atom split or something of that nature caused the explosion. But who knows, maybe it was the work of a Holy Hand Grenade. We'll never know until the invention of a time machine.

[DisturbedMind]

but the question then asked should be, what happened for the matter to not already be in that condensed state....(the general answer I hear is usually that it is a previous version of the universe from another 100 trillion billion years ago, kinda like a giant, rubber band of matter) And I think we really do agree on this, like you said, for the most part. I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic (I know it's a cop out, but oh well) and so I think most of what you said between those previous posts of mine was pretty good. But I like that we've been able to see that both of us have strong and weak points...mine being that I'm using the catch all "God did it." And I realize that I'm evoking a timeless being b/c I cannot, using the limited scope of the human brain, to comprehend the immense, vastness which is infinity. I mean, can anyone really imagine that the universe has no end?

[Sniper]

Heh, yeah I see your point. Like I said before, even though I don't agree with the God point, I will accept that as a perfectly valid compromise. It does make sense. The problem I have is when people quote every word of the Bible (or other religious document) as absolute undeniable fact. You posed the question "where did the matter come from?" and, nt even being out of high school, I obviously can't answer that. Who knows, maybe God made it.;)

[Raijin_Thethundergod]

We're trying to fit God's description into our thought, of course we will not be able to describe it.
Is god a male or female, white or black? thats what we humans are, not god.
Obviously, God's a being that we cannot understand, yet. So its our choice to believe or not.

I have never read the Bible, but in the Quran many things are already explained in a simple language. Like how the earth evolves around the sun many did not believe it back then, but now -using science- we know that it is true. I'm sure that it is the same with the Bible.

IMO, we choose to believe in religion, but we also try to prove what is contained in each religion using science.
So I think that religion and science DO go along.

well, this is my opinion.

[uzzi]

religion for sure i aint from a monkey yo !

[J.T.]

Scientifically speaking your brain still is alive up to 3 minutes after your heart stops.I believe that in that three minutes you lose all sense of time (no heartbeat means no internal clock) and practically you experience eternity. Now is there going to be God, Devil, Zeus, Einstein or Rukia waiting for you is completly up to your beliefs and hopes...

[Geyter]

I think all religion and soul and whatnot is a defense mechanisme our mind uses to accept the innevitability of our deaths.

And uzi you are from a monkey, deal with it. (if you don't believe it look at bush's face, can't get more monkey looking than that)

[negitoro]

religion for sure i aint from a monkey yo !
You mean Chrisitianity?

Because in a number of religions, you could be reincarnated from a monkey or to a monkey ;)

[Acidrain]

hmmm...i dont really "agree" with religion....I would LIKE to think that there is a heaven or that we can be reincarnated...but I do not...that is all

[uzzi]

You mean Chrisitianity?

Because in a number of religions, you could be reincarnated from a monkey or to a monkey ;)

yup not karma...

[Pansori]

IMO, we choose to believe in religion, but we also try to prove what is contained in each religion using science.
So I think that religion and science DO go along.

well, this is my opinion.

Interesting enough, there is a theory that someone made a long time ago that said one day science will overcome religion, and that religion will cease to exist in way of science. Obviously that theory holds no merit and has been debunked but when you think about it, it does hold some truth.

When we ask questions like "What started the plague?" or "Why is the sky blue?" "What is that rainbow for?" the answer you're going to get will be scientific. Because in our modern day we know the plague wasn't started because God was pissed and that rainbows are not there for leprachaun's benefit.

It's the more thoughtful questions like "What is the purpose of my life?" or "Why did mom die so young?" that is usually attributed with the heavenly answers.

[HEADMASTER]

wow I missed this thread!!!



Is There Any Contradiction Between Science and the Bible?

In the long history of man's quest for knowledge, scientific facts vary through the ages, but God's word had always confirmed the truth. Science, it should be noted, is anchored on human experience and knowledge and, therefore, is subject to error. The history of science clearly shows that what is considered scientifically true today may not be so tomorrow. On the other hand, God's word is the ultimate truth, the Bible rest on the unlimited power and wisdom of the Almighty God. The following are proof that as science arrives at the ultimate truth, it will always be compatible with the Bible.
taken from
http://www.uniquebiblestudy.com/topic10.htm

Did the Bible say that the earth is round or spherical in shape long before Ferdinand Magellan circumnavigated the globe?

"When the Bible was written it was universally believed that the world is flat. It was argued that should one go too far toward the edge he would fall off. .... Finally, Magellan and his men sailed around the earth and thus proved it to be spherical in shape." Dehoff, George, W. Why we believe in the Bible, 5th edition. (Murfreesboro, Tennessee: Dehoff Publications, 1962) p.49

YES, the Bible said that more than 2000 years before Magellan and his men circumnavigated the globe some time (1519-1522 AD) in the 16th century. It was already pronounced by God through His prophet Isaiah, that the earth is round or spherical in shape.

In the book of Isaiah, which was written between 745 and 680 B.C., this is recorded:

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth", and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: (Isaiah 40:22, KJV)
KJV- King James Version

there are still proofs that even before science proved something it was already stated in the bible. for other explanations just go here http://www.uniquebiblestudy.com/topic10.htm

[Sniper]

I noticed he said circle and not sphere. It was never actually stated that the Earth was spherical. Science has shown that many things are most likely wrong. For example, the Earth was not created in seven days, it took millions of years. Adam and Eve were not the first humans, we evolved over time.

What I want to know is if religion is right, why is there so much debate about it world-wide. Science aside, there are a huge number of COMPLETELY different religions and all of them think that they are right. Which one is real? The Bible? Maybe the Qur'an? I'll take science and logic rather than deal with all that religious guesswork.

[Necrosis]

I noticed he said circle and not sphere. It was never actually stated that the Earth was spherical. Science has shown that many things are most likely wrong. For example, the Earth was not created in seven days, it took millions of years. Adam and Eve were not the first humans, we evolved over time.

What I want to know is if religion is right, why is there so much debate about it world-wide. Science aside, there are a huge number of COMPLETELY different religions and all of them think that they are right. Which one is real? The Bible? Maybe the Qur'an? I'll take science and logic rather than deal with all that religious guesswork.

First of all the bible shouldn't be taken literly. It can have so many meanings it can be anything. Personally the bible has been rewritten so many times that it can be saying a comptletly different message. As for the 7 day thing I though we already agreed that days to god can mean millions or billions of years. Also is it possible for all (or most) religons to be right to. Most religon have a supreme being that is kind with a dark creature who is evil. It was just mankinds view that changed it. I personnaly believe in science and religon but not the church.

[Sniper]

A day is a measurement of time, and does not vary from person to person. When the Bible says seven days, it means seven days.

That said, I agree that you shouldn't take any religious document literally. They're meant as guidelines, not as absolute rules. There are things in the Bible saying that you should stone your kids if they disobey. Should we follow that one?

[Acidrain]

...I just dont believe in worshipping someone (when it comes to catholocism)...it just seems...pathetic to me...i mean i was raised to believe that i should follow the ten commandments...but that it pretty much...and i dont follow some of those commandments anyways

[Notstevencolbert]

Religion wins, mainly catholisism. why? because its right.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

I am right so therefore everything I say is right by association! notstevencolbert is wrong... wow that was so easy. Make an actual argument when coming to the debate forum. And spell the religion correctly.

[Notstevencolbert]

so you agree with me when i say i am right. that was also quite simple. Thank you for your input sir.

[Useless]

the word is input...and make an argument...pretending to be stephen colbert is....annoying after 3 minutes....
and this is debate forums, meaning serious....

[Alberio]

so you agree with me when i say i am right. that was also quite simple. Thank you for your imput sir.

Uh..no quite the opposite in fact...

I also think the same as what Excel just said, get a actual debate here.

I find it funny is some of the greatest scientist and mathematicians mixed religion and science together. Just for info, sorry for saying something a bit off the debate.

[Acidrain]

so you agree with me when i say i am right. that was also quite simple. Thank you for your imput sir.

Hey! I was watching the colbert report yesterday and he was talking about you! LOOOOOOOOSEEEEEEEER!

[Notstevencolbert]

I am dead serious, maybe before you judge me, you should take a good long look at yourselves, for shame, what has become of the internet. also who says im pretending to be steven colbert. I cant be something im not and my name clearly states i am not steven colbert. Maybe you should look at the facts sir.

[Sniper]

Dude, seriously. Stop. You're not cool, you're not funny. Just stop.

[nope]

you can argue wether science or religion is right till the ends of time, only to have the truth reveal itself to you when your Time is up.

[Sniper]

Not if religion is wrong. Then when your time is up, you're screwed.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Yeah you're on your death bed awaiting your death, your heart feels and all goes black and there is nothing there... gotta suck...

[Acidrain]

I am dead serious, maybe before you judge me, you should take a good long look at yourselves, for shame, what has become of the internet. also who says im pretending to be steven colbert. I cant be something im not and my name clearly states i am not steven colbert. Maybe you should look at the facts sir.

NO! Seriously! Steven Colbert was talking about some guy on the internet named Notstevencolbert! FOR REAL! GAH! I DIDNT KNOW THE GUY HE WAS TALKING ABOUT LIKED MANGA!

[nope]

yea, i guess the truth hurts sometimes, but death is the only sure answer to the question. also "Notstevencolbert" is the persona he used on the show to go to some internet forum and rant about hungarians to parody the fact that bill O'rly said it was a hatemongering forum. he then had the forum creator on in a short interview.
*watches colbert report every night*

[Acidrain]

oooooooooooooooh...XD...not as good as the daily show lol

[nope]

daily show is a little better. jon stewart rocks

[Acidrain]

yeah...but colbert is still pretty funny...aaaaanywaaaaays

[Excel-Kleinwald]

I hate Jon Stewert and the Daily Show, and you know what? This is an unacceptable topic! So get back on the topic train cause next stop: debate town!

What do you think made people believe the bible for so long anyway? (and the other holy books as well) was it perhaps that they wanted to believe in it is the reason why?

[J.T.]

Because it: a) Speaks of certain universal truths and morals.
b) Gives hope for the future.

And that's not just the Bible, I'm fairly sure that every holy book has these... People like to know that everybody will get what they deserve sometimes... Hence the concept of "Hell" (not a very cristian thing if you ask me, but there it is).

[luciferhellblazer]

faith is something that holds you to gether when there's nothing else left...

[Sniper]

[QUOTE=Excel-Kleinwald;67240]I hate Jon Stewert and the Daily Show, and you know what? This is an unacceptable topic!QUOTE]

You had to get the last word in before laying down the law, didn;t you?:p

Anyways, I think that's probably part of the reason, but I think most of it is that since the founding of religion, people have been taught that God is always the right answer and you should never question him. It's only fairly recently that science has been able to show so much about the world we live in and how we came to be. Before Darwin, and even during his time for the most part, Creationism was completely unopposed. It just doesn't occur to most people that God could be wrong.

[luciferhellblazer]

depends on what you call "God"... if you call "God" alll matter in the universe then no matter what... you could hardly be wrong about him... cause he's all there is *looking at what I just said... omg... I'm high again*

[Pansori]

What do you think made people believe the bible for so long anyway? (and the other holy books as well) was it perhaps that they wanted to believe in it is the reason why?

I don't think wanting to believe is much of a reason as to why people cling to their faith. As others have already stated, a big reason is because so many things in this world are still unexplained, and we humans have for thousands and thousands of years relied on our belief in some kind of supreme deity to explain the unexplainable. And truth be told Faith is a powerful force in and of itself, something most religious people recognize.

It's Faith that drives a nun to pray for several hours of the day in solitude. I dont know about anyone else, but to me, sitting in a room by myself while chanting on a rosary for hours on end seems an almost impossible task.
I watched a video once where a young man walkd on his knees in a circle while praying on his rosary. Call me easily amused, but I thought that was an amazing feat of endurance to circumnavigate such a huge circle on one's knees.

Away from Christianity we can look at Buddhism. Most of us have heard the stories or seen the photographs of Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire to protest the Vietnam war and then sitting there stoicly, patiently burning themselves to death.
How exactly can we explain this seemingly lack of pain? One logical theory that I've heard is that we only use so much of our brain power, and obviously these monks tapped into a portion of the brain that was unused. And if that's the case what led them to this ability? Simply put, their faith in what they believe.
They had faith in their belief: that the war was wrong, that their time on earth was over with, that this was the last impression they could leave. And look what the power of their faith was capable of. It defied the neurorecptors within their body that sends the pain signal to our brain. Of course those same nerves were probably quickly burned away, and the monk didn't feel anything after a while but even so, I don't think I would be able to sit and wait patiently for flames to consume my nerves. I'd be flailing around like a maniac, even if my intention was suicide.

If you think about it, it's pretty amazing what good things (and bad) the power of faith can do. In that regards, I don't think it should be so easily dismissed.

[Acidrain]

...too-much-reading...dont type so much in one post lol

[Pansori]

Please, Acid, were you expecting anything less? ;)

You should know by now I'm long winded.

[Acidrain]

XD yeah yeah yeah...ummmmm...what do i have to say...

man created god...and not the other way around

[Sniper]

I read it in computer class because I was bored. All I have to say it that faith didn't make them do these thing, willpower did. Faith can grant someone extraordinary willpower if they need it, but you don't need faith in order to have that kind of strength. I think people believe in religion because they've been raised to believe in God and truly think the Bible is right.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

I hate Jon Stewert and the Daily Show, and you know what? This is an unacceptable topic!

You had to get the last word in before laying down the law, didn;t you?:p


Yes... yes I did... you can rebuttal while still staying on topic however... anywho.

A lot of what we believe and how we perceive things does have a lot to do with our upbringing. Being surrounded by the beliefs around me I have to admit I do think a lot like my parents, however I am also brought up to think how I want to believe and what I believe is right. Long long ago, the majority of people weren't brought up that way. they were brought up in the way of: children should be seen and not heard

[Sniper]

children should be seen and not heard

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that still think that way. I can't wait until I'm in college. Hopefully people will stop looking down on me there. But that's a different debate (which probably deserves it's own topic. Hmm...)

That's actually a very good point. It's true that many kids were taught to respect their elders and that their parents couldn't possibly be wrong. With that kind of mentality, kids often would share the exact same opinions that their parents had. The 50s seemed like the era of conformity, and that may be one of the reasons why many adults are more religious than most kids are these days. This is an era where independence is greatly encouraged.

[Pansori]

This is an era where independence is greatly encouraged.


Not only is independence encouraged, but like you said in a previous post (or thread, I get them confused) science has made major leaps and bounds within the last few generations. Nowadays you are more apt to see someone question the things that were taught in the Christian Bible, rather than following them stoicly as was the norm back then. That mixed in with the media and entertainment (what religion is more fun to pick on and disect than Christianity?) it wouldn't surprise me in the least if statistically speaking there are fewer people who claim to be Christian than 50 years ago.
But at the same time, cultures and subcultures still come into play. It still boggles my mind to see the number of future Holy Rollers in my area (I live in the south). These are kids who were raised in the church, never fail to attend every Sunday, and literally receive some sort of "high" with prayer.
My U.S. History teacher takes personal glee in dogging Christianity. The first time I had him he proclaimed Jesus was an Arab and a girl stormed out of class and never came back. Today he was going on about the hypocrisy within the Church, and by the time class was over several students were fuming.


As for the College thing... college is a different playing field. Of course you still have your cliques and such (our student center is the meeting ground for the recent high school jock graduates -_-) but it really is a different atmosphere.

[Iamazombie]

Im a weak athiest(look it up on wikipieda) and proud of it!(I live in a very chirstain area and enjoy the look i get when i tell people that im athiest its very funny and sad)
anyway my take on it is that it is impossible to disprove the exsistance of a god but at the same time it is very unlikely that there is one on the other hand i think that it may be possible to disprove indiviual religions just from the many contradictions(ie-how can a god be all knowing but we still have free will or if he is all loveing how can he allow ppl to go to hell?)

a interesting Idea i found awhile ago wat if there is a god but is not in any of the existing religions and insted of needing faith to get to the equifalent of heaven U needed to think logicly about stuff.

[Sniper]

That's called science. We scientists seek true enlightenment by logically proving how things happen.

And another thing, it's impossible for God to be all-powerful. No one can ever be all-powerful, even if there is a God. I'll prove it right now.

Can God make a rock that he can't lift? If the answer is no, then he's missing the power to make that rock. If the answer is yes, he's missing the power to lift that rock! HA! Logic wins!:devil:

[ShootingStar~]

LOLOLOL Sniper! xD

[Necrosis]

That's called science. We scientists seek true enlightenment by logically proving how things happen.

And another thing, it's impossible for God to be all-powerful. No one can ever be all-powerful, even if there is a God. I'll prove it right now.

Can God make a rock that he can't lift? If the answer is no, then he's missing the power to make that rock. If the answer is yes, he's missing the power to lift that rock! HA! Logic wins!:devil:

Answer to that question is god made gravity so the question itself fails since god isnt affect by gravity.

Its like a rock with no gravity in space. No matter how big or heavy it is I will still be able to lift it up.

[Acidrain]

sigh...I dont understand why people believe in god...a giant behemoth of a man sitting in the clouds with powers to control us all? An all powerful force that when you die brings you to a kingdom in the sky where people have wings? I just cant imagine anything as stupid as that...when you die, ur a decaying corps 6 feet underground...its a lot like when your born...eternal nothingness....

[Useless]

yea...i sort of believe that...
well thats the reason i was atheist...(however the correct term for me is agnostic...i can't prove that won't happen)
anyways....B.o.T.
sniper is right....god can't do these things
logic, or science, will always beat religion...
if he makes a rock he can't lift, he lacks that ability
if makes a rock he can lift, then he lacks the ability to make a rock he can't lift

[Necrosis]

sigh...I dont understand why people believe in god...a giant behemoth of a man sitting in the clouds with powers to control us all? An all powerful force that when you die brings you to a kingdom in the sky where people have wings? I just cant imagine anything as stupid as that...when you die, ur a decaying corps 6 feet underground...its a lot like when your born...eternal nothingness....

Who said it had be like that. I believe in science and the big bang but isn't it just possible that god just created the big bang. I belive in science and I believe science can prove everything about 2 things. What created everything (what created the big bang) and what happens to you after you die. The reason I belive in god is because what happens after you die. Can you actully truly accept that you just die and truly die.

[Wanderless]

in the big scheme of things i think god abandoned us and look towards very far into the future and saw another race that was superior to us humans basically were just proto types of another race a better race

A GERMAN RACE <<<<(lol)
i was kidding about the german thing but my point is humans = prototypes god = making a big master plan

[Acidrain]

...religion was basically created to give hope to people and to show them whats good and wahts bad...people are naturally afraid and couldnt accept just...dying...so heaven and hell were born

[Useless]

Who said it had be like that. I believe in science and the big bang but isn't it just possible that god just created the big bang. I belive in science and I believe science can prove everything about 2 things. What created everything (what created the big bang) and what happens to you after you die. The reason I belive in god is because what happens after you die. Can you actully truly accept that you just die and truly die.

yes and i actually look forward to that.
i would not like to live forever, there is no such thing as a perfect society so heaven would have problems. and even if it didn't, can anyone say their lives have been good enough to actually get into heaven?
i know i sure as hell can't and i'm only 14

[MangaAddict]

People want to believe in a god because they feel happy and secure knowing that there is something looking out for them in the long run. It feels empty and alone thinking there is nothing. Religious people are almost always the most happiest or carefree people in this world. I dont really mind them unless they are forcing their opinions on me. I also cant stand others forcing atheism on them. But most religious people believe there is an afterlife where they will be saved from the misery, hate, and evil on Earth...

[Useless]

...religion was basically created to give hope to people and to show them whats good and wahts bad...people are naturally afraid and couldnt accept just...dying...so heaven and hell were born

yes...this is along the lines of what i believe religion is
i think religion is an idea, not a fact. So God does not exist, but he is an idea that you use to better yourself

[Necrosis]

yes...this is along the lines of what i believe religion is
i think religion is an idea, not a fact. So God does not exist, but he is an idea that you use to better yourself

Yet it cannot be totaly dissproved. The only way to dissprove it is to wait until you die. Besides what wrongs if you do or don't belive in him. What difference does it truly make (unless your one of those extremist).

[Useless]

exactly my point...hence me saying that i wasn't atheist yet agnostic
i can't prove or disprove it.....no one can until death so there is no point arguing over something that is purely conjecture and opinion

[Alberio]

@Acid: Well technically religions, or at least the ideas behind them, were created to explain the things current knowledge could not.

@Necrosis: Well the Big Bang can be explained with current science, but its accuracy is not 100%...

I do not like going into god because whether god exists or not cannot be proven as of today, and probably for a long time, or forever depending on your own opinion on what we will develop to be...

[Acidrain]

if only people could come back to life...then THEY could tell us...*grins and runs off to his laboritory*

[Useless]

these forums basically consist of agnostics (as far as i can tell not atheist yet agnostic, like alberio) and religious people that still use a bit of science
this being said, i don't see much of a point continuing this debate since we seem to have hit a standstill of what we can explain

[Necrosis]

So we can all agree that god cant be proven or disproven? I think having a "Little" faith is good and being atheist is fine. The problem is when the extremist gets together and tries to force there beliefs on each other.

Edit
@acidrain: How do you know god just doesnt wipe there memories when you bring them to life?

[Alberio]

True...I could go into what Necrosis said about the Big Bang being started by god, but I would prefer not to since I don't know the exact details of the membrane theory, which if true, could allow multiple universes to be possible, as well as the 4th dimension that has been theorized to exist, which interests me quite much.

[Useless]

yes, i don't know much about the details about the big bang or evolution, but they are near proven theories that i choose to believe, although i couldn't get into a debate about that....
but i do believe that "god having a part in it" is stupid...he did it or he didn't helping along the way would just be weird in my opinion

[Sniper]

Answer to that question is god made gravity so the question itself fails since god isnt affect by gravity.

Its like a rock with no gravity in space. No matter how big or heavy it is I will still be able to lift it up.

So, he can't create a rock he can't lift. He lacks that power. Point proven.:thumbup:

Anyways, we do have theories as to how the big bang started, but I really don't understand any of them, so I'm not going to go into that. Ask Steven Hawking.

Now, I've said this many times before and I'll say it again. I can NEVER EVER disprove ANYTHING! Right now, my bed is tap-dancing and my toaster is taking pictures from the surface of Jupiter. I can't disprove that. Not being able to disprove something is NEVER a valid reason to believe in anything. You need any evidence that supports your theory in order for it to be considered valid. If there's a lack of evidence, then it's probably wrong. I'm only saying this to try and get people to stop saying "well, you can't disprove that." If you use that as an argument, then my bed is tap-dancing.

In regards to death, I can accept the fact that nothing happens after I die. I don't believe in any afterlife, so I've come to terms with the fact that everyone who is gone is gone forever, as I will be when I die. Instead of worrying about what happens after you die, enjoy your time here on Earth and make the most of it. I also believe that you should always be nice to others because they need to make sure their time alive is good too.

Oh, and we do know what the fourth dimension is. The fourth dimension is Time. This has been added in addition to the three spacial dimensions length, height and width. It also has different rules and equations that apply to it. Some things go crazy though. String theory says that there are 11 dimensions. 10 spacial dimensions and 1 time dimension.

[J.T.]

"There are no means to, using the events following the Big Bang, determine what was before it. That means that question about existence or non-existence of events before Big Bang is purely metaphysical."
S. Hawking

"Idea of some new additional dimensions may sound strange to anyone who hasn't studied physics on college."
E. Witten

[sasukesun]

could it be as simple as a matter of choice?
definitively there is no proof of science falling out of heaven on a rock. proven or unproven theories either way, i do not believe anyone's God or Higher Power is an angry entity that defines or denys things because it is written that our precious choice is our gift from God or Higher Power that He/She freely gave to us as wittnessed throughout time. People have choices. I do not believe this is a 21st century (or future generations) question, in my humble opinion. It is so 'old school' in my opinion.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Science is not a "thing" or whatever that can fall from the sky. Science is the study of everything. Then it branches into specific branches.

[sasukesun]

ok, ek.
religion is a belief, the basics fell out of heaven on a rock given to Moses on a mountain, (havent you ever been slammed in the face with this when you were trying to make a point).
science is a knowledge systematically based upon principles
or something like that
they are both nouns, ie person places things.
however, i accept you point of view, and apologize if i offended you.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Hmm... I think I misread your post as saying Science fell out of the sky... so I suppose I was in the wrong, and was in no way offended or anything like that, if I was easily offended I wouldn't be int he debate thread.

[Sniper]

Basic summary of the two sides:

religion: the belief that through faith and worship a person can reach enlightenment. This usually includes an all-powerful creator that watches our actions and judges whether we go to paradise or not, though this differs from religion to religion. In some rare cases, such as Buddhism, there is no lord at all.

science: the systematical, logical study of the workings of the universe. This is generally used to allow humans to better understand the world we live in and as a result develop new technologies that improve the standard of life. There are many different branches of science and many fields within each branch. Science requires that it's theories be developed and tested by using the scientific method and finding evidence to support the theory. As a result, nothing can ever be proven, only shown to be the most likely option.

Those are the basics of the two sides of this debate. Whichever you support, we would love to hear your input as to why you support this.

[nope]

instead of seeking to understand something impossible to comprehend, why not spend the time you have left to learn everything else in its place? religion is a waste no matter wich way you look at it, you live your life and then you die, you should live your life and learn as much as possible.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

I tend to want to support both sides. I support science because it is the study of the world around us and just progresses human understanding even further to help better our ways of life. I support religion (note: not all because religion spans many different ideals) because of the morals they tend to uphold and they spread the idea of welfare toward each other. Basically I support

Science: For Knowledge
Religion: For Morals

[Sniper]

Aesop's Fables also had morals. Morals are good to have, but religion does more than just guide your concious. It promotes conformity and midless following. Christianity even referres to worshipers as sheep, saying they are God's flock and Jesus is the shepard. Religion has caused so much pain, suffering, and death throughout history that I have a hard time supporting it, even if it does teach morals. There's a quote I like. "I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." - Aristotle. This means that if you just think about what you're doing, you don't need the threat of eternal damnation to make you do it. We could have morals without someone dictating what they are.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

I apologize, perhaps I should have said PARTS of religion? I myself am agnostic, and don't follow any sort of specific religion. But I understand you can find morals and such in many things but the most prominent would be the holy books. I loved Aesop's fables

[Sniper]

Sorry if that seemed like an attack on you, E-K. I was just speaking about how morals can come from less dangerous sources. I wasn't trying to put down your opinions or reasoning or anything.

[nope]

mankind could probably do without religion, its the cause of many wars throught time, but mankind could not survive without science. with or without religion good people will be good and bad people will be bad. Religion doesn't dictate morals, a religious man is not automaticaly a good man just as an intelligent man is not necesarily a scientist.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Sorry if that seemed like an attack on you, E-K. I was just speaking about how morals can come from less dangerous sources. I wasn't trying to put down your opinions or reasoning or anything.

I hate you forever and will never forgive you.

Oh and I for one believe that wars are not always a bad thing.

[Sniper]

I think war can sometimes be a good way to solve a problem that otherwise would threaten our way of life, but it's a decision that should be a last resort kind of thing. But that's rather off-topic.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Well... we are just running around in circles and going off topic is the only thing keeping this alive besides people who pop into the thread to say their two cents that either make no sense (pun?), or don't read the previous posts.

[Sniper]

Pretty much. Especially when we're the only two people who post here with any regularity.

[Lutyo]

lol what has this become?

[Excel-Kleinwald]

It has become a circular debate thread.

[MangaAddict]

Hey, I post here once and a while too. Though my opinions are almost always ignored because they arnt very good...
Anyway, my Human Evolution professor believes in both evolution and god. Shes a christian and she says its annoying when religious people say they dont believe in evolution when there is so much evidence to support it...
And some religious people dont believe NASA who says that there might be microsopic life on Mars because that would disprove the whole "god created man" thing.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

first of all, life on mars does not disprove that god created man, that is just close minded. And secondly, aren't you in the wrong thread (kinda) MA?

[MangaAddict]

Science versus religion... My science believing instructor is also religious. Im in the right place...

[Sniper]

Yeah, God created Man and Martians. Also, evolution stuff should go in the evolution thread. Not that it's completely out of place here though...

There's a quote I like by philosopher Bertrand Russell. He said "The trouble with the world is the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt." This means that doubting something is good. It's smart to doubt something until it is proven completely. Being completely certain and having blind faith is kinda dumb.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

Thus is the way of life until we evolve into supreme, all powerful beings

This controversial statement has been brought to you by: ACROSS, conquering your worlds, one city at a time.

[MangaAddict]

Seriously excel, you have an obsession... lol!

I agree with what you said sniper. Thats completely true! The ignorant are the ones that believe something blindly. However, I dont think religious people are ignorant. They just have faith in something they have never seen... Uh, the key word is faith. My mom, a nurse, says that when religious people die, they always die more peacefully than non religious people. Also, she swears, that when patients die she sort of feels something leaving their bodies. My mom is catholic and shes not one to lie, so thats just something to think about...

[Excel-Kleinwald]

So should I lock this thread at 20 pages and remake it or not?

[MangaAddict]

Probably not because evrything was pretty much discussed. If some newbie in the future decides he wants to discuss, then you should let him but theres no reason to make another now...

[Jori]

hmm.. Well I beleive in Science and Religion. I beleive that time in relevance to god is different than man. Thus the bible is told in god's "time" and perspective. Days to god could mean centuries to us. With that said, god could have also put it into human's perspective, but if the bible was made to be undoubtedly true, where would science and culture be at now? I doubt science would be as progressed if the bible was 100% true..

Ah, well just my 2cents.

[Sniper]

she swears, that when patients die she sort of feels something leaving their bodies.

I feel something leave my body when I fart. Do I no longer have a soul?:confused:

Really though, that's not a very scientific observation. People can think they feel or see or remember something if they want to. Their brain makes it real for them. We usually call it hallucinating. I'm not saying your mom is hallucinating, but your brain can make you feel something that's not there if it wants to.

And faith is the key word. Faith is the blind following of an ideal that has little or no evidence to back it up. This is not always bad, but just something that should be watched.

And as for peaceful deaths, what about the people who were burned as "witches" or the people who drowned when they were being questioned and were found not guilty as a result, or the people who were murdered in the crusades? Religion has the bloodiest history of anything. It's not always peaceful.

[MangaAddict]

Im talking about this day and age. Back then, all people died horribly. Religious people die more peacefully because they are more willing to accept their fate whether 'God' is helping them or its in their head.
And many people in the medical field claim to feel something leaving dying patients bodies. I dont believe in god but the fact that many nurses and doctors experience this is rather strange.

[Useless]

well the people that feel this could be religious. So they feel this because they think it will happen, or because they want to
its like their mind is playing tricks on them....its possible...i assume

[MangaAddict]

Mind over matter. Whether there is a God or not, religious people feel more comfortable with death and they are ready to let go much easier than nonreligious people. They believe in salvtion after death where others believe they will cease to exist.

[Jori]

Few things are truly peaceful and have a past that isnt drenched in blood.

[Useless]

my past isn't drenched in blood....
it was pretty obvious she was talking about religious people nowadays....
especially since she said that in her own words

[SilverKunai]

Useless... Keep it on topic or don't post at all.

[MangaAddict]

He was defending me on a past post where I was talking about religious people and death. Go back and read the posts and you'll see.

[Sniper]

And many people in the medical field claim to feel something leaving dying patients bodies.

Many people also claim to have been abducted by aliens. My guess is that the "feeling" they get could be sorrow. They grow attached to their patients and feel sad when they die. Since they get a physical feeling, they misinterpret it. Another theory is that they believe that the soul is leaving the body and their subconscious is searching for it. When their subconscious finds nothing, it makes its own feeling for it.

[SilverKunai]

He was defending me on a past post where I was talking about religious people and death. Go back and read the posts and you'll see.

*Shrugs*

I could've meant past tense or future tense. I win both ways...

[MangaAddict]

Do you know anyone in the medical field? Most nurses and doctors detach themselves from patients. They learn not to get close after a while. Some may believe they feel something only to make them feel better about the situation. But not all exaggerate or make it up in their minds. They swear they feel something. Who knows maybe it can be explained scientifically?
@Sk, isnt what you are doing spam?

[Excel-Kleinwald]

SK, stop spamming.

I really think you shouldn't take "feelings" that seriously because there is no proof to them at all. Thus we get back into our usual debate of believing, and faith, and science, and theory stuff again.

[MangaAddict]

You told sk to stop spamming, for that I will love you forever!
And I was just saying that if many people had these feelings then its something to think about. We arnt talking about just a few people we are talking about a wide variety of hospital staff who have gone to college and are somewhat scientific themselves.

[Sniper]

Like I said earlier, there is a enormous number of people who believe, and I mean BELIEVE, that they have been abducted by aliens. I've watched interviews and shows about them, and you'd be astounded by how easily your brain makes up things that you really want to believe. Most of the people see counselors about the encounters, and the counselors ask leading questions. This causes their subconscious to invent the memories that they never had. It could be similar with these cases. Dreams are a good example of how incredibly creative and detailed your brain can be if it wants to be. It wouldn't be hard for someone to think they felt something because they subconsciously expected to.

[Excel-Kleinwald]

If going to college equates having any intelligence at all, then I will cripple myself.

[MangaAddict]

We are talking about people who have got to be smart because these are the most competetive fields out there. They must have a 3.7 in order to get into nursing school. And these people are not like 'alien abductees.' Most are not insane, nor do they have mental problems...

[Excel-Kleinwald]

I think many people's ideas of colleges, even for the most competitive fields, are a bit blinded by the sugar coating it gets. But again, this is a science vs religion thread

[MangaAddict]

Why is it so hard to accept even a slight bit of spirituality? You people are just as bad as hardcore religious people who reject science.
Excel, close the damn thread, lol!

[Megabuster]

Science and religion go hand in hand. If god really did make the earth then why cant it be a vastly complex system like the real world? Science merely studies and explains how it works to make better use of what is in this world.