[Character] Shirosaki/Hichigo/Ogichi/Ichigo's Hollow (Part 2)

[My December]

Continued from the previous thread (http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=39443)

Last 6 posts:

Yeah, you could be very right Shady. I REALLY like your theory by the way, it sounds like you just might have ruined the entire story for BLEACH lol. The Human Soul as a missing link? True potential unleashed, it sounds sooo interesting. You must have thought hard to reach that conclusion.

But I have a question, most Shinigami start of as Human souls, Renji and Rukia where Pulses before they were Shinigami. What makes Ichigo's own Soul different from others? Its implied throughout this manga that Hollows and Shinigami all posses the potential to acquire the others respective powers, yet they were all human at some point. Couldnt they all, also, establish that link with their Shinigami and Hollow powers because they were Humans as well? If your hypothesis is truly correct, 'why' Ichigo? Why is he the only one feeling the effects of this? Is it the way he aquired Shinigami powers? Does the fact that he was a Pulse to begin with and his unconventional transition into a Shinigami/Hollow entity support your assertion?

To answer your question, I guess you should look at it this way. A human soul has the potential to become both a hollow and shinigami, in most normal cases that doesn't happen until they die. In Ichigo's case it happened when he was still very much alive, even more so he gained both his shinigami an hollow powers at the exact same time. It's kinda hard to paint a clear picture of what i mean with just words so bare with me.

Lets for a moment divide a soul into 3 squares, all placed next to each other divided by a white line to represent a barrier between those parts. On the left you have the hollow part, in the middle the human part and on the right the shinigami part. In most normal cases after a person dies it can become a hollow or shinigami, of course it doesn't have to become either. But for the moment lets assume it becomes a hollow. Since the human part of the soul is now gone (the person died), only two squares remain divided by a gap and the barriers that were already there. It only has access to hollow abilities and power. The hougyoku seems to break down the barriers and creates a link between both squares, a bridge if you will, allowing the hollow side to use some but not all of the shinigami side's power and abilities. Naturally the opposite would be true if it were a shinigami. In Ichigo's case his barriers were broken down while he was still human, creating both a hollow and shinigami version of himself. In his case the human part has access to both sides completely.

The thing that makes Ichigo different is the fact he is human, he's still alive. I guess the best way to look at it is to see the human part of the soul as the part that has full access to both sides and can unify them. Of course, because Ichigo's clear hatred for his hollow side, he doesn't allow himself to use much of his hollow's power, and its created two seperate identities for both sides (Ichigo sees himself as a shinigami, not a human being anymore). His inner hollow however seems sure that in the end he will gain control, or maybe it should be that he thinks that Ichigo will no longer be able to deny his hollow side for much longer, because he will need that power.

If I understand the rules of the Bleach universe correctly, this isn't entirely accurate. Before being thrown in the pit with Tessai, his soul chain was cut:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/60/18/

This severs the connection between his soul and his body - IE: from this point forward, Ichigo is *technically* dead. I'm not 100% sure he even realizes it. He still gets into his body, in the same way as other Shinigami get into a gigai.



I think it's more like the barriers never existed in the first place, so far as Ichigo is concerned. He became both at the same time, so both sides opened to him. He viewed himself as a Shinigami, as that's what people told him he was (and it was what he *wanted* to be, Hollows being his enemy and all).

Later, after his Hollow started being a problem, and he met the Vizard, who seemed similar, he identified with them - and so he's emulating them now. However, at that fundamental level, he's different. While Shinji and the others were artificially turned into Hollows, then stabilized by Urahara, Ichigo arrived at a similar state naturally.

IMHO, it has less to do with him being Human, and more to do with arriving at both sides simultaneously, rather than becoming one, and then the other.

Thats a good clear picture you've given me Shady, yes that does sound very likely, maybe feasible in the actual manga. But, you assert that Shirosaki and Ichigo are no different from one another, you rightly say BOTH DESIRE POWER; which I agree with you undoubtedly. Looking at your previous posts I've come to the conclusion that Shirosaki and Ichigo share a very strong concept, the theme of Destruction, they are both very Destructive forces who may exercise their potential for different reasons.

They seem to represent different perspectives of this however, Ichigo seeks power for the purposes of Protection from harm. To protect his friends and innocents that may be caught within this current struggle, this desire has grown from his own experience of weakness and inability to act, which cost his mother her own life to protect his own. With the discovery of his destructive abilities and the transition of their enviroment to one of violence and anarchy, where serious harm can be brought upon those he cares for; Ichigo realizes that he finally has the abilities to protect those he loves from that coming harm. He utilizes his destructive power to stand against others who seek to bring harm to his loved ones and innocents caught up in the struggle of two forces. Therefore, Ichigo's use of his Destructive abilities is seen as for Good purposes. His Hollow, however, the being born from Ichigo's destructive abilities represents the other perception towards Destruction. Which thrieves in bringing harm and unneeded destruction to all things indiscriminantly, this use of Destructive abilities to bring harm (the opposite to Ichigo) is seen as Evil in purpose. If we agree on this, does this not challenge your notion of Ichigo and Shirosaki being no different from one another?

From your posts Shady, I got the feeling that you felt it was a matter of time till Ichigo accepted the machinations of Shirosaki as his own, due to them sharing this theme of Destruction. I would have to disagree with you my friend and heres why.

You rightly assert that Ichigo seems very egotistical in his combat abilities, not wanting the assistance or inteference of others in his battles. Furthermore, you assert that he hides his lust for battle behind a facade of friendship, I did agree with you on this before; but I found my view shifted on that notion. I do believe that Ichigo genuinely desires to protect those important to him, and that his flaws, such as his inability to accept help from others in combat; seem to stem from a self-centred belief he has in himself. But these assertions of his, I believe are not arrogant or beliefs of superiority over his friends, as your posts seem to imply. In looking at Ichigo's actions on the small scale, I believe you fail to see the bigger picture, in attempting to fight by himself Ichigo relieves those he wants to protect from the burden of combat itself. In attempting to due so, Ichigo presents himself to be a very selfless individual, not only will he protect his loved ones but carry the burden of having to fight in batteles on his own if he must. For within battle, as is well known, their is the threat of Death and loss of comrades; and after lossing his mother I would think Ichigo does not want to experince that pain of loss again.

Now, you may argue thats selfish because he doesnt want to experience emotional pain, but its not his own pain he would be averting but the emotional trauma of others who share bonds with the people he cares for. This act of selflesness comes across as (Im not blasphming just drawing a comparison guys) very Christ like. Jesus Christ, who carried the burden of every mortal sin commited by man, Ichigo and Christ share the theme of carrying anothers burden. Furthermore, we know the positive impact of Christs actions of carrying mankinds burdens, they were given the opportunity to repent and live better lives. Ichigo, in his attempt to protect his friends and innocents, aims to carry this burden and defend them so that their lives may be more peaceful, better and without the fear of harm from others.

Unfortunately, I am aware of how Ichigo's attempts fail, Orhime being the stronger example than Rukia (Orhime doesnt want Kurosaki to always carry the burden to protect her an the others, she wanted to protect Ichigo and the others by giving herself to Aizen). In doing so Ichigo inspires concern and worry amongst his friends, causing them to be dragged into battle with him for their fear of lossing him, causing Ichigo's plan to fail. But, this serves to prove that Ichigo's heart is in the right place in doing these actions.

This post is long, sorry guys, but I just wanted to point out how it maybe percieved that Ichigo is a better person than his Inner Hollow. Not being 'one and the same' the notion that Shady has put forward between the two. It's possible that Shady you are right, but then again, its possible you are wrong. All we can do is just speculate my friend.:)

Well I wasn't saying he never fights for his friends, but there have been moments where he fights purely because he wants to fight, not necessarily to protect someone. It was the case in both the fight with Grimmjow and with Ulquiorra, both those fights were the result of his own thirst for battle. What I say is he fights as much for his friends as he fights for himself. He's really not that different from Kenpachi.

I can agree with that, Ichigo may SOMETIMES fight for selfish reasons, that was the case with Grimmjow; however Im not to sure about Ulquiorra. Grimmjow and Ichigo share some similar characteristics, such as they dont like people looking down on them and they are reckless. Because of that I would assume Ichigo's battle with Grimmjow was pretty personal and selfish as you say.

With Uliquorria, I feel its different. Inoue was kidnapped again, so he had to go and get her back, Uliquorria was an obstacle he had to over come to get her back. However, Uliquorria did look down on Ichigo and we know he doesnt like that, so their fight does have some personal overtones to it.

Hmmm....yeah, I guess he's like Kenpachi, Ichigo's own instinct looks like Kenpachi in the Inner World. That Kenpachi pointed out very strong similarities between them, such as strong individuals such as themselves will inevitable be drawn to battles. Scary stuff, wouldnt you agree Shady?

[yman]

Donno if this was already posted somewhere, but here's a list of the clearest images I found showing the changes that occured over time to Ichigo's mask:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/64/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/100/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/216/16-17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/253/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/281/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/346/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/12/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/01/

[WaffleCopter]

His hollow self just needs to take Ichigo over already.

It's more powerful, and everything would go by quicker.

[GilesBeast]

His hollow self just needs to take Ichigo over already.

It's more powerful, and everything would go by quicker.

why do you say that?

[WaffleCopter]

Because Hichigo/Shirosaki is stronger than Ichigo, it seems. And the stronger Ichigo, the less this drags on.

[GilesBeast]

Because Hichigo/Shirosaki is stronger than Ichigo, it seems. And the stronger Ichigo, the less this drags on.

I only ask this because of the simple fact that ichigo is able to supress shirosaki.. a bit like naruto & the 9 tails.. his actual strength is not drawn from the hidden "evil" inside of him but his ability to control & supress that power within him..

[Dimitri]

I only ask this because of the simple fact that ichigo is able to supress shirosaki.. a bit like naruto & the 9 tails.. his actual strength is not drawn from the hidden "evil" inside of him but his ability to control & supress that power within him..

But I think what waffle means is that whenever shirosaki comes out, aka when Ichigo is getting his butt kicked, Shirosaki totally reverses the match and leaves the enemy half dead. If Shirosaki was out for good then the enemies wouldn't last very long. Although that would make the manga rather boring lol.

[GilesBeast]

But I think what waffle means is that whenever shirosaki comes out, aka when Ichigo is getting his butt kicked, Shirosaki totally reverses the match and leaves the enemy half dead. If Shirosaki was out for good then the enemies wouldn't last very long. Although that would make the manga rather boring lol.

i get that.. & that's exactly what happens to naruto.. it's pretty much the same principle.. ichigo will learn to control this newfound power.. & will again have supressed shirosaki.. it's like when shirosaki said something along the lines.. that the only difference between the king & the horse is instinct?? so when ichigo gets into a near death situation he stops thinking & instinct (shirosaki) kicks in..

[yman]

I think Shirosaki doesn't actually want to take over. He sure acts like he does, but the way he talks sometimes makes me think that he's trying to help Ichigo, rather than replace him. This might explain why each and every Vizard in the series has won his inner battle. In essense, what I'm saying is that the inner battle is really no different than training for Bankai, and the inner Hollow wants it's owner to win, but he wants the victory to be earned, not handed over like a present.

[bleachlover1992]

I agree with Dimitri, if in every fight Hollow Ichigo took over the battle and the fight was over in say 11 seconds, the manga would be 100% predictable. Of course as it is bleach is 50% predictable. Yet i see the relationship between Ichigo and Hollow Ichigo as this. In my logic, hollow Ichigo is in a sense Ichigo's alter ego. Ichigo has some kind of moral when fighting. This was proved when Ulquiorra had to provoke Ichigo into fighting him. Saying that Inoue had been damaged emotionally, psychologically. Something of that sort. But, also in the second battle between the two of them towards the end, ichigo had said "This isn't the way i wanted to win!. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/19/ Ichigo has set standards on how he seems to want the battle for him to move along. (There is more i can say in this but i would start to ramble so I'm moving on)

Hollow Ichigo on the other side here is just a slaughtering machine. The "embodiment" of Ichigo's killing instincts. The instincts he tries to reject. To hollow ichigo, its seems as to him moral and standards should not be even thought about in battle. And in battle not to think just act and rely on instinct.
(I'll finish this later I'm brain dead.)

[Aarun]

I like how people say that if Hollow Ichigo was constantly out, his fights would be over in a few seconds, where-as most people who have been almost defeated by Hollow Ichigo were taken by surprise at the sudden power-up he gained, if they suspected it, the fights wouldn't be that easy.

[bankai wubber]

Wait didnt rukia have the hougyoku inside her hidden when she gave ichigo his shinigami powers

maby thats why he has both powers of a shinigami and hallow and gained a vizards power with out ever meeting aizen?

or maby the hougyoku break's down barrier of a soul so that the person can become stronger?

Also if hichigo (coolist laugh ever) took over every fight it would be kinda dry

But i think in ichigo's fight with ulq that ichigo became the horse and hichigo became the king also i would love to see that form alot more :thumbup:

p.s. sorry i ramble :)

[mike009]

Wait didnt rukia have the hougyoku inside her hidden when she gave ichigo his shinigami power.

maby thats why he has both powers of a shinigami and hallow and gained a vizards power with out ever meeting aizen?

or maby the hougyoku break's down barrier of a soul so that the person can become stronger?

Also if hichigo (coolist laugh ever) took over every fight it would be kinda dry

But i think in ichigo's fight with ulq that ichigo became the horse and hichigo became the king also i would love to see that form alot more :thumbup:

p.s. sorry i ramble :)

The Hogyoku was in a Gigai Uruhara made for Rukia after she gave her power to Ichigo.

Ichigo got Shinigami powers from Rukia but then lost them when he fought Renji and Byakuya beat him. After that Uruhara made him regain his Shinigami power but he was in the process of Hollowfication so that's when his Hichigo was create.

[Archangelxiii]

I think Shirosaki doesn't actually want to take over. He sure acts like he does, but the way he talks sometimes makes me think that he's trying to help Ichigo, rather than replace him. This might explain why each and every Vizard in the series has won his inner battle. In essense, what I'm saying is that the inner battle is really no different than training for Bankai, and the inner Hollow wants it's owner to win, but he wants the victory to be earned, not handed over like a present.
i completely disagree. i think that shirosaki wants to take over. that is the purpose of him being a hollow. i think that everyone who is turned into a hollow faces their inner hollow, their inner demons. but normal humans can't fight that ravenous instinct. so they lose and become hollows. shinigami possess the abilities needed to beat their inner hollows and suppress them. that is the only reason ichigo beat shirosaki.

[ronrealplaya]

The Hogyoku was in a Gigai Uruhara made for Rukia after she gave her power to Ichigo.

Ichigo got Shinigami powers from Rukia but then lost them when he fought Renji and Byakuya beat him. After that Uruhara made him regain his Shinigami power but he was in the process of Hollowfication so that's when his Hichigo was create.

rukia have been embedded with the hougyoko after she died in the real world together with her sister... ... that's when urahara found her i guess when she was still a baby... probably after her sister abandon her...and atleast 160 years ago in the bleach current timeline...

aizen also knew that the hougyoko was sealed into someone but never know it was rukia and just later found out that the one who bore the hougyoko on a soul was rukia but found out taht rukia has already gone to Karakura town to fulfill her shinigami duties...

thar special gigai that was given by urahara to her was also just a vessel to make someone with spiritual power or pressure get have their reiatsu divided until it disappears completely that would cause the soul in that gigai to become just like a normal human emitting no reiatsu whatsoever...

[mike009]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/17/

"Would you like to rent a Gigai?"

Soul doesn't need Gigais, Shinigami does. And 160 years before Bleach, the Hogyoku was most likely not create. Since he created it during the TBTP arc IIRC.

[stravagation]

rukia have been embedded with the hougyoko after she died in the real world together with her sister... ... that's when urahara found her i guess when she was still a baby... probably after her sister abandon her...and atleast 160 years ago in the bleach current timeline...

aizen also knew that the hougyoko was sealed into someone but never know it was rukia and just later found out that the one who bore the hougyoko on a soul was rukia but found out taht rukia has already gone to Karakura town to fulfill her shinigami duties...

thar special gigai that was given by urahara to her was also just a vessel to make someone with spiritual power or pressure get have their reiatsu divided until it disappears completely that would cause the soul in that gigai to become just like a normal human emitting no reiatsu whatsoever...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/17/

"Would you like to rent a Gigai?"

Soul doesn't need Gigais, Shinigami does. And 160 years before Bleach, the Hogyoku was most likely not create. Since he created it during the TBTP arc IIRC.

This is getting a little off-topic but..

You know from that I think he and Rukia first met then (when he rents her the gigai, after she gave Ichigo her powers). From the Bleach side we see that this was Rukia's first real-world mission by herself (and hence to Karakura Town). Furthermore, the way he says that means they probably haven't met before then, though he could be pretending for whatever reasons...

I think it was after Rukia gave Ichigo her powers that he saw an opportunity, only then did he put the Hogyoku in her plus gave her the gigai.

It makes more sense then, especially if you compare with how long Rukia has been in SS and that only Aizen just found out where it was and not in the 40 years before the start of the series. Furthermore we know Urahara can't go to SS, so it had to be they met in the real world.

..So to bring things back..

Wait didnt rukia have the hougyoku inside her hidden when she gave ichigo his shinigami powers

maby thats why he has both powers of a shinigami and hallow and gained a vizards power with out ever meeting aizen?

or maby the hougyoku break's down barrier of a soul so that the person can become stronger?

Also if hichigo (coolist laugh ever) took over every fight it would be kinda dry

But i think in ichigo's fight with ulq that ichigo became the horse and hichigo became the king also i would love to see that form alot more :thumbup:

p.s. sorry i ramble :)

..That's unlikely to be the reason he has both powers.

[Rialgo]

"My theory as to Ichigo's form that killed Ulquiorra is this:

We all know Ichigo has both Shinigami AND Hollow powers; Shirosaki is the Hollow, Ichigo is the Shinigami. Well, Ichigo is a Vaizard, we've seen that in action, because he's a Shinigami using Hollow strength. But what happens when Shirosaki is in control? Theoretically, Ichigo's body would then be a Hollow with Shinigami powers -- Therefore, Shirosaki in control of Ichigo's body is an Arrancar by definition. Sure he still has the mask, but that just means Kubo can have him become a "true arrancar" and remove it. Paired with the fact that Ichigo is already damn strong, Shirosaki could easily be Espada-level in strength, maybe even Vasto-Lord strong if fully in control."

Quoting myself from the previous thread because I want to see what you guys think of this. I mean, sheesh, I called Shirosaki an Arrancar/potential VL and no one even sneezed in my direction. If it's already been theorized and struck down and I just missed it, my apologies :P

[Archangelxiii]

"My theory as to Ichigo's form that killed Ulquiorra is this:

We all know Ichigo has both Shinigami AND Hollow powers; Shirosaki is the Hollow, Ichigo is the Shinigami. Well, Ichigo is a Vaizard, we've seen that in action, because he's a Shinigami using Hollow strength. But what happens when Shirosaki is in control? Theoretically, Ichigo's body would then be a Hollow with Shinigami powers -- Therefore, Shirosaki in control of Ichigo's body is an Arrancar by definition. Sure he still has the mask, but that just means Kubo can have him become a "true arrancar" and remove it. Paired with the fact that Ichigo is already damn strong, Shirosaki could easily be Espada-level in strength, maybe even Vasto-Lord strong if fully in control."

Quoting myself from the previous thread because I want to see what you guys think of this. I mean, sheesh, I called Shirosaki an Arrancar/potential VL and no one even sneezed in my direction. If it's already been theorized and struck down and I just missed it, my apologies :P
okay, i don't think so. i think that what we saw was something unique. he had his hollow side take over, but he had his shinigami powers under control. so he was basically a hollow with a bankai, and hollows don't do that they just sort of humanize.

[Rialgo]

okay, i don't think so. i think that what we saw was something unique. he had his hollow side take over, but he had his shinigami powers under control. so he was basically a hollow with a bankai, and hollows don't do that they just sort of humanize.

HOLY CRAP KUBO IS POSTING HERE!!!! :eek: Since, you know, that's the only way you can state as a fact something that we don't know. :P

But anyway, you're saying that he was just a plain old hollow who happens to have shinigami powers? I don't see how that is anything besides an arrancar... hollow + shinigami power = arrancar, amirite? :confused:

[Crimson Angel]

HOLY CRAP KUBO IS POSTING HERE!!!! :eek: Since, you know, that's the only way you can state as a fact something that we don't know. :P

But anyway, you're saying that he was just a plain old hollow who happens to have shinigami powers? I don't see how that is anything besides an arrancar... hollow + shinigami power = arrancar, amirite? :confused:
No hollow plus shinigami powers = vasto lorde :eban: Ichigo is a vasto lorde. never did tite say that a shinigami could not be a vasto lorde.:P

[Archangelxiii]

HOLY CRAP KUBO IS POSTING HERE!!!! :eek: Since, you know, that's the only way you can state as a fact something that we don't know. :P

But anyway, you're saying that he was just a plain old hollow who happens to have shinigami powers? I don't see how that is anything besides an arrancar... hollow + shinigami power = arrancar, amirite? :confused:
no what i said was that an arrancar couldn't have a bankai. which has already been stated. when edorad stated their zanpaktou's didn't have souls, and were just their sealed powers that took away any possibility of a hollow having bankai since bankai requires a zanpaktou spirit. so if he had a bankai, but he was still a hollow that means that he (ichigo) was controlling his zanpaktou's spirit while being controlled by his hollow. which is not what an arrancar is at all. what it is something new. a true hybrid

[Rialgo]

no what i said was that an arrancar couldn't have a bankai. which has already been stated. when edorad stated their zanpaktou's didn't have souls, and were just their sealed powers that took away any possibility of a hollow having bankai since bankai requires a zanpaktou spirit. so if he had a bankai, but he was still a hollow that means that he (ichigo) was controlling his zanpaktou's spirit while being controlled by his hollow. which is not what an arrancar is at all. what it is something new. a true hybrid

AHA! Okay, gotcha. Yeah, I got you were saying arrancar couldn't have a bankai, but I couldn't see why not :o

Well, to whoever said it, Shirosaki can't be a Vasto Lord. Hollows become VL by eating other hollow souls. Unless I'm confused about this too, there aren't many hollows living in Zangetsu/Shirosaki's world inside Ichigo's head.

[Far_Cry]

I read strangely in enough, in the Kenpachi thread that Ichigo could be a VL... this COULD be true you know, we know he has an inner hollow and the only way to become a VL is to consume thousands of hollows...
given the time span in the bleach manga vs the time he's had an inner hollow, i think we can say he HAS fought and killed enough hollows, perhaps his inner hollow feeds off their death? this is just theory, we've seen a second form from his hollow which made Ulquiorra look like a school girl

Also, the Ichigo was able to learn black getsuga tenshou from having his hollow form do it first... now that the second stage hollow created a cero, would this mean that in a sense Ichigo would be able to learn it?

[theshadyone83]

It's said hollows absorb the power of the ones they eat through their masks, so the same would apply for Vizard and Ichigo. In Ichigo's case however his zanpakutou and his inner hollow are pretty much one being and as a result Ichigo doesn't absorb the power of hollows he kills through his mask, but rather his sword. The amount of power his inner hollow seems to have can be seen increasing by the markings on the mask. The markings kept growing and growing as the story developed. Around the time Ichigo fought Ulquiorra the left side of the mask was almost completely covered in markings and he later transformed into that berserker thing. It's unusual that Ichigo's mask is actually showing markings that seem to indicate a growth in power, though the mask seems to be divided, the left half representing his hollow with the markings, the right side completely white, presumably the shinigami side. The anime might support that in episode 233, but I'm gonna have to see, as in the episode Zangetsu after he takes on a life of his own is seen fighting Ichigo with only the left half of his mask available to him, in an unusual black and red color, which is new.

Ichigo has neither had the time or the opponents to reach a Vasto Lorde level for his inner hollow, its more likely he's reached Adjuchas level. As seen from Shinji, Vizard have the ability to fire off cero too, so Ichigo should be able to, if he didn't hate his hollow side.

[GravityZero]

Honestly, I think Ichigo's power level and appearance in full hollow form is Vasto Lorde, because when he trained against the Vizards his full hollow form's power level and appearance was around Adjuchas level.

[mike009]

"My theory as to Ichigo's form that killed Ulquiorra is this:

We all know Ichigo has both Shinigami AND Hollow powers; Shirosaki is the Hollow, Ichigo is the Shinigami. Well, Ichigo is a Vaizard, we've seen that in action, because he's a Shinigami using Hollow strength. But what happens when Shirosaki is in control? Theoretically, Ichigo's body would then be a Hollow with Shinigami powers -- Therefore, Shirosaki in control of Ichigo's body is an Arrancar by definition. Sure he still has the mask, but that just means Kubo can have him become a "true arrancar" and remove it. Paired with the fact that Ichigo is already damn strong, Shirosaki could easily be Espada-level in strength, maybe even Vasto-Lord strong if fully in control."

Quoting myself from the previous thread because I want to see what you guys think of this. I mean, sheesh, I called Shirosaki an Arrancar/potential VL and no one even sneezed in my direction. If it's already been theorized and struck down and I just missed it, my apologies :P

Shirosaki might be something more than a Hollow. Hollows have a mask and a hole while Shirosaki don't. Also, hollows don't have Zanpakuto let alone Shikai and Bankai, however Shirosaki proved to us he was able to use both. Maybe all Inner hollow are like that but until we see the Vaizard's Inner Hollow, we can't judge.

[Rialgo]

Shirosaki might be something more than a Hollow. Hollows have a mask and a hole while Shirosaki don't. Also, hollows don't have Zanpakuto let alone Shikai and Bankai, however Shirosaki proved to us he was able to use both. Maybe all Inner hollow are like that but until we see the Vaizard's Inner Hollow, we can't judge.

Okay, I was about to point that out :P
Yeah, Shirosaki's the only inner hollow we've seen, so we can't know for sure. Good point, of course.

[Archangelxiii]

Shirosaki might be something more than a Hollow. Hollows have a mask and a hole while Shirosaki don't. Also, hollows don't have Zanpakuto let alone Shikai and Bankai, however Shirosaki proved to us he was able to use both. Maybe all Inner hollow are like that but until we see the Vaizard's Inner Hollow, we can't judge.

ugh. your post makes me realize my theory has to be said. that is going to take time i don't have.

[yman]

Shirosaki might be something more than a Hollow. Hollows have a mask and a hole while Shirosaki don't. Also, hollows don't have Zanpakuto let alone Shikai and Bankai, however Shirosaki proved to us he was able to use both. Maybe all Inner hollow are like that but until we see the Vaizard's Inner Hollow, we can't judge.

Can't say anything about Shikai and Bankai, but it's pretty obvious the reason why the inner Hollow has no mask is because he's inside. Whenever Ichigo transform into a Hollo, voluntarily or not, his body gets a mask, just like any other Hollow.

EDIT: We've never seen an inner Hollow successfully take over a Shinigami, or an inner Shinigami take over a Hollow, so we don't know what the result would be like. The only possible source of information we have on this is the TBTP arc, and there's nothing useful there that I can remember.

[vizardspwn]

when ichigo had inner battle 2 (to get the mask) his mask looked the same as his hollow form (that the vizards were fighting). SHI has a completely different mask, so this could be from adjuchas to VL.

[yman]

when ichigo had inner battle 2 (to get the mask) his mask looked the same as his hollow form (that the vizards were fighting). SHI has a completely different mask, so this could be from adjuchas to VL.

Please see post 2 in this thread, that lists images of all changes that occurred to Ichigo's Hollow mask. Here's a summary of the noticeable changes:

If you look closely, you will see many more changes:

2 lines on the forehead.
3 lines on the forehead.
3 lines on the forehead, one and a bit on the cheek.
3 lines on the forehead, 2 on the cheek.
4 lines on the forehead, 2 on the cheek, 2 on the chin.
4 lines on the forehead, 2 on the cheek, 3 on the chin.
4 lines on the forehead, 3 on the cheek, 3 on the chin.
Horns, 2 lines on the scalp, 2 lines going from scalp to jaw.

That is the full list of changes.

EDIT: and for the last entry, the lines are black whereas previously they were red.

[GR1M R3AP3R]

Something has been bothering me since vol. 3. How can ichigo be still alive?

What i mean is uryu said that no matter how much spirt energy someone has if it is at full blast at all times it would eventually drain and they would died. If ichigo's energy has been going at full blast his entire life until he met rukia when he gained his soul reaper powers. since then he has been using much more of his power then before when all he did was channel them and help them, in other words using minimal energy, now as a soul reaper he is expending 100x or even 10,000x more energy. So he is losing his inert power in such a way that he should be running out of spirt energy very soon if he had no way of replenishing his vast reservoir of spirt energy. Now we know that ichigo will never died in such a crappy way (or at lease we can hope so.) And we know that hollows gain power by consuming beings of high spiritual energy density, (such as ichigo's sister,) and other hollows. and we all know that ichigo has a inner hollow, thus this thread. Now we know that his father was a soul reaper but we know nothing of his mother, (and comparing nel grown up and the few pics of ichigo's mother they look similar, but that my just be a coincident. and nel really likes ichigo) but consider if ichigo has always had a inner hollow, and all hollows gain power from consuming spirt energy, then all of his battles would continuously replenish his reservoir of spirt energy thus keeping him from dying. Example point one: Volume 6, Chapter 49, Page 13-18. If my theory is true then he would have gained a lot of power from all of his battles with the low level hollows. when the menos launched it's doom blast, ichigo was able to deflect it, and any other soul reaper at the level that ichigo was at during this time would most likely would just have been vaporized. And if ichigo was able to absorb the menos's power until he was able to send it back with a Getsuga Tensho, (Yes it was a Getsuga Tensho, the first one in the series.) but he was unable to release all of the absorbed energy, so he had the "bursting dam" effect until uryu was able to lower his spirt energy to manageable levels. Example point 2: Volume 7, Chapter 54-55, Pages ch54/12-18; ch55/6-15. He started to be overcome by Renji then he gain power until byakuya intervened. Example point 3: Volume 8-21. After his encounter with byakuya and he regained his soul reaper powers, his energy level was at 0. After fighting with Uraharar he was able to gain enough energy back to "hear" Zangetsu's name and releasing his Zanpaku-to to the "Meat Cleaver" that we all know and love. And he was nearly defeated by Ikkaku, but after fighting him his power increases to him being able to defeat Renji, even if he almost was killed in the process. But after defeating him he was able to go one on one with Kenpachi for a while. Although needing to borrow power from Zangetsu to win, he was able to get up and try to save Ganju and Hanataro. Even then the captains thought that it was another captain, and before the battle with Kenpachi then never considered him more then a minor threat. After seeing Byakuya one more time he gained bankai within about 1.5 days, half the time that it should have taken him. So by this time he has gain all of his power back from the spirt energy that he had consumed though his battles with the soul society and since he had master shinki and banki his spirit reservoir had increased substantially. making him even more powerful, but he now has to fight for the same power between himself and his hollow self so he has not gained his maximum energy reserves but his hollow self kept gaining power and evolving as ichigo gained power during battle but still took ichigo's power during time of rest and thus ichigo lossed power slowly while his hollow self became more and more powerful, thus the sensation of his hollow growing and getting closer and closer until ichigo defeated him and took control back. But his hollow form still gained power when ichigo battled and thus continued to evolve to the "Demon Hollow" that we saw.:wolf:

wow that took forever:yawn:

[yman]

A. He doesn't use his spiritual energy except in battle or training.
B. He's a living human being, so he can replenish it the same way any human does, though we aren't shown what that is.
C. Shinigami in SS replenish their spiritual energy by eating food. No reason to believe Ichigo isn't doing that.

[GR1M R3AP3R]

A. He doesn't use his spiritual energy except in battle or training.
B. He's a living human being, so he can replenish it the same way any human does, though we aren't shown what that is.
C. Shinigami in SS replenish their spiritual energy by eating food. No reason to believe Ichigo isn't doing that.

he is always blasting his spiritual energy at all time even when he is in his human body, that is why uryu knew about ichigo when he first moved to ichigo's hometown

[NaLaaST]

@GR1M R3APER

Ichigo is always "blasting off" due to him having too much reiatsu in his body to contain, and having no control over it.

You quote that Uryuu said there was no way for him to live at all time at full power. True enough.

But he does not consume Hollows or other peoples energy to live (Thats Ruri'iro Kujaju for you), rather, (still quoting Uryu) he unconsciously seal it at its lowest possible level.

Hence, having no control over it the first time the seal is broken, he completely loses it, and start pouring it out dangerously - potentially dying, until Uryu collects that excess reiatsu and fires it as spiritual arrows.

And to top it off, at that moment, he was using Rukia's powers, his Hollow had no - canon - existence.

So all that rambling to say that before his training, he was unable to use his powers, and fighting on his normal (as in unconsciously relased) abilities and power reserve until put in actual danger. Its the same as Kenpachi before fighting seriously (see chapter 109 if I am not mistaken), then the eyepatch.

Plus, Rukia said that Zanpakuto cleanses Hollow from their sins - commited after transformation, not before. So the 'Meat Cleaver' is unlikely to eat up anyone.

Lastly, the 'I am exhausted but I kick you ***' ability is a well known fact about many manga main characters. And its fits with Ichigo's unability to control his power.

[vizardspwn]

currently it seems zangetsu is ichigo's zanpakto spirit (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/21/

[TheConBrio]

currently it seems zangetsu is ichigo's zanpakto spirit (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/21/

Well, that wasn't ever technically confirmed. Ichigo assumed that to be true but I personally don't think that's gonna be how it works out. Ichigo beating his hollow wouldn't return old man Zangetsu to his seat of power. The fact is the order of control didn't change in the way of Zangetsu all that happened is Ichigo temporarily established his place at the top of the food chain. Shirosaki beat Zangetsu and then tried for the position of top dog and lost the fight. But guess what? He doesn't get knocked to the bottom he just stays at his position as number 2 and Zangetsu is stuck with 3rd place. Ichigo will have to make his Inner Hollow submit entirely to his will and take all his power for his own before Zangetsu can become his partner again. I'm kinda missing the old codger despite how brutally awesome Shirosaki is.

[GR1M R3AP3R]

Well, that wasn't ever technically confirmed. Ichigo assumed that to be true but I personally don't think that's gonna be how it works out. Ichigo beating his hollow wouldn't return old man Zangetsu to his seat of power. The fact is the order of control didn't change in the way of Zangetsu all that happened is Ichigo temporarily established his place at the top of the food chain. Shirosaki beat Zangetsu and then tried for the position of top dog and lost the fight. But guess what? He doesn't get knocked to the bottom he just stays at his position as number 2 and Zangetsu is stuck with 3rd place. Ichigo will have to make his Inner Hollow submit entirely to his will and take all his power for his own before Zangetsu can become his partner again. I'm kinda missing the old codger despite how brutally awesome Shirosaki is.

i dont think that when ichigo fought his inner hollow to gain control of his mask that it was the same place where zangetsu resides and where is zangetsu anyways?

[TheConBrio]

i dont think that when ichigo fought his inner hollow to gain control of his mask that it was the same place where zangetsu resides and where is zangetsu anyways?

Nah, it was Ichigo's inner world just the same as before. I personally have a theory that Shirosaki has sealed Zangetsu's powers away from Ichigo and is hoarding them to himself thus why he's so much more powerful than Ichigo. In addition to the fact he actually knows how to fight unlike his shinigami counter-part. Anymore his zanpakutou is much weaker via comparison to it's power before. Zangetsu was supposed to be this supremely awesome and powerful zanpakutou and now even bankai can't do much and his shikai might as well just be the sheathe for it. So that leads me to believe that even though Ichigo's enemies have gotten more powerful other Captain-level Shinigami can still do some damage with their sealed blades....so it seems to me Zangetsu itself has gotten weaker, thus Shirosaki is granting Ichigo just enough power to get him into trouble so he has to use his hollow powers more and more leading to this most recent explosion of hollowy kickassery we saw in the fight against Ulquiorra.

[Inusho]

Nah, it was Ichigo's inner world just the same as before. I personally have a theory that Shirosaki has sealed Zangetsu's powers away from Ichigo and is hoarding them to himself thus why he's so much more powerful than Ichigo. In addition to the fact he actually knows how to fight unlike his shinigami counter-part. Anymore his zanpakutou is much weaker via comparison to it's power before. Zangetsu was supposed to be this supremely awesome and powerful zanpakutou and now even bankai can't do much and his shikai might as well just be the sheathe for it. So that leads me to believe that even though Ichigo's enemies have gotten more powerful other Captain-level Shinigami can still do some damage with their sealed blades....so it seems to me Zangetsu itself has gotten weaker, thus Shirosaki is granting Ichigo just enough power to get him into trouble so he has to use his hollow powers more and more leading to this most recent explosion of hollowy kickassery we saw in the fight against Ulquiorra.

Hey wow, you're still hangin' around here? Interesting. Haven't seen you in a long while. And yeah, it does seem Ichigo has gotten weaker. I mean, having to go Bankai + Mask to fight Grimmjow... Ugh. That's... Overboard. Shouldn't have had to do that at all.

[~Rausaro~]

Inusho, is that Sarcasm? *can't tell*

His foes have been more and more powerful.

TCB: I like your theory. Hollow I is probably behind the new form with some trick. In fact, I wonder if Ichigo's merely being bred as the container for a superior Vasto Lorde type hollow? Could the Vizard have a similar evolution, since the Arrancar have at least 3 stages?

[Munnin]

I've noticed Ichigo getting weaker as well, or just not developing at the rate he was, I also think its because he still tries to draw power from Zangetsu, when he should be drawing it from Ogichi.

[Shuma22]

It's the other way around...

Aniway, how is he getting weak? Seriously.

[~Rausaro~]

It's the other way around...

Aniway, how is he getting weak? Seriously.

Agree. He's growing at an insane rate. Just because he uses his inner hollow doesn't mean he isn't powerful: he's just using one of his many ubber powers.

[Inusho]

Inusho, is that Sarcasm? *can't tell*

His foes have been more and more powerful.

TCB: I like your theory. Hollow I is probably behind the new form with some trick. In fact, I wonder if Ichigo's merely being bred as the container for a superior Vasto Lorde type hollow? Could the Vizard have a similar evolution, since the Arrancar have at least 3 stages?

Was it? That's up for you to figure out. :D Seriously though, Ichigo's lack of resolve is getting him beat big time. He managed to dominate Grimmjow in the last bit of the fight, after he regained his resolve. But so stubborn he is. I think that if he hadn't just gotten done fighting Grimmjow when the 5th Espada attacked, he could've beaten him as well. He actually seemed... Weaker than Grimmjow in some ways. I don't know about you guys, but did it surprise you at all that Grimmjow was able to hold his ground, and seal away Ulquiorra like he did? That was great.

Wait, since when do Arrancar have at least 3 stages? I could've sworn I saw only two! Ulquiorra doesn't count.

[vizardspwn]

well if you count ulquiorra there is 3 forms

[TheConBrio]

He's getting stronger, no doubt. But in comparison to other captain level shinigami his bankai is insanely weak, really. Or rather, his shikai is insanely weak. Look at the other shinigami, they don't have to release their zanpakutou even to shikai in order to get any of the Espada to draw their blades to defend themselves. Ichigo goes BANKAI and Grimmjow stopped it with his barehand like Ichigo's sword is a broomstick. Now look at every other fight with a captain going against an Espada. And these espada ranking far higher than Grimmjow on a scale of power. But guess what. They can get the Espada to draw their swords to defend themselves when Ichigo couldn't even make Grimmjow so much as flinch with his bankai. Which is supposedly around 5 times stronger than shikai which is probably 3 times stronger than an unreleased sword. So by comparison Ichigo is using 15 times more of his own power against lower-level Espada and doing about 4 times less damage than other shinigami of the same level as him. And don't even think about saying "Oh well, their unreleased blades are just stronger since they've had more practice" That wouldn't overcome so much of a power difference. Not too mention Zangetsu's shikai form alone has been put up on a pedestal that stunned the ever living hell out of all the captain's at one point (Say, destroying the Soukyouku's stand which supposedly had the defensive capability to withstand one million zanpakutou) and even intimidating Ichigo himself when he saw it in the hand's of his hollow. That's all the reasons I've pointed to my previous theory of Ichigo's zanpakutou being restrained by a great deal. And in the most recent chapter after his so-called death of the hands of Ulquiorra not only is his mask different and clearly immensely more powerful....His normal bankai form has undergone a massive power boost. I'm just going to make a guess that the barrier separating his hollow from his shinigami has been eroded heavily from his death and awakening of his new powers thus leading to a great deal of power leaking from his hollow side to his shinigami side.

[RandomRider]

Great point Con, really.

He's been in bankai since Grimmjow, another thing I noticed and perhaps this is a testament to just how much power he has. When Renji was close to death, his bankai reverted. In fact, I believe that's one of the rules. However, with Ichigo, even with his chest blown open his bankai never once reverted. This can probably be chalked up to Shirosaki, who seems to operate separately from Ichigo most of the time.

He's learning new tricks, or perhaps he's ripping off new tricks from his hollow self. Maybe he came to the realization that the rest of us have known for awhile. Shirosaki can grant him a lot more power than Zangetsu can.

[Shuma22]

@TheConBrio:

I disagree, it's true that the veteran captains are on a completly different league, but, think about it.

Byakuya is one of the top captains, and in my opinion, not counting the veterans, he must be the strongest captain there, and his Shikai was no match for Ichigo's Shikai, same with their Bankais.

Also, you have to remember that Grimmjow and above are above average-captain lvl, and Ichigo's abilities with Bankai where still inmature at the time. On the third fight with Grimmjow he actually fights Grimmjow on even ground with his Bankai, Grimmjow FORCES him to hollowify by shooting a Gran rey cero at Orihime, and remember that when Ichigo hollowified he eassily trashed Grimmjow several times.

And in the end, he beats Grimmjow's strongest technique withouth his mask and withouth using Getsuga, remember that Ichigo was just "enjoying" the fight against Grimmjow, it wasn't until Orihime yelled at him that he snapped out of it and he realized that it wasn't the time to be playing. And that's when he started owning Grimmjow(again).

Also, all the Captains v.s Espada fights have been special.

Mayuri has the power of plotscience so you can't really compare him to anyone.

Byakuya fought against a weaker opponent, and he was an idiot.

Kenpachi is another special case, and remember that even then, released Nnoitora was pwning Kenpachi withouth his eyepatch, after Nnoitora released Kenpachi only landed one blow on Nnoitora and it was a pathetic slash in Nnoitora's cheek. Kenpachi won by pure luck because Nnoitora got desperate and charged head on into Kenpachi's attack.

Hitsugaya only survived that long against Halibel because of his Zanpaktou, remember that EVEN Luppi owned him and that his Shikai couldn't do **** against sealed Yammi. Any of the other Espada would've owned him.

Soi-fon was owned by Barragan the whole fight and her Bankai was useless even when she teamed with a Vizard Kido master.

And as for Starrk, he fought 4 Captains, all of them where obviously above common Captain lvl and Starrk made them all look like fools.

When they where fighting one on one, Shunsui didn't land a single hit on Starrk, even though he was already using his Shikai, and when Ukitake joined the fight, even though they where fighting Starrk togheter, they didn't land a single hit on him.

Then he fought Love and Rose and made them look like fools eassily. Shunsui HAD to use the Vizards as a distraction to get one surprise hit on Starrk that allowed him to gain the upper hand.

So don't say that Ichigo is weak, he's quite strong, the Captain v.s Espada fights have just been special, where Ichigo's fight against Grimmjow was fight between brutes.

As for the increase in power lvl:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/60/17/

How many times do Ron and I have to post that page?

Oh and by the way, when you compare Ichigo to the vizards he's way stronger, if the Vizard's mask break, they're screwed, Ichigo on the other hand can keep reforming the mask over and over and over again.

[egr]

^I read all that and there's not a single thing to contend... :phail:

I guess I could add that Shunsui/Ukitake-combo would have probably been able to beat a Starrk pushed to his limits but that's prob not even disagreeing.

Good post.

edit: "^" = "<-"

[GChan]

I think Shirosaki and Ichigo are gonna be having a chat soon, with the way Ichigo's acting...

[RandomRider]

I think Shirosaki and Ichigo are gonna be having a chat soon, with the way Ichigo's acting...

Maybe they already had a chat, and that's why he's acting the way he is. I wouldn't be surprised if Shirosaki is merely letting him finish things up before kicking Ichigo off so that he'd be the new horse.

[Shuma22]

They definitively had. The Mindless Hollow just comes out when they are killing each other in their inner world. At least, that's what the past experience indicates.

Remember that Hollow Ichigo=/=Shirosaki. Hollow Ichigo is a mindless buttraping monster, Shirosaki screams and mocks his oponents(byakuya).

[GilesBeast]

They definitively had. The Mindless Hollow just comes out when they are killing each other in their inner world. At least, that's what the past experience indicates.

Remember that Hollow Ichigo=/=Shirosaki. Hollow Ichigo is a mindless buttraping monster, Shirosaki screams and mocks his oponents(byakuya).

I think that during the Ulq fight when Ichigo "died" Shirosaki took it upon himself that this was an opportunity to take the throne thus they had a battle in his inner world & like you say that's why the "instinct" hollow came out which is what destroyed Ulq.. although it was strange this time as didn't SSJ Ichigo speak?.. Was this a sign that Ichigo was in some way/shape or form aware?

[RandomRider]

I think that during the Ulq fight when Ichigo "died" Shirosaki took it upon himself that this was an opportunity to take the throne thus they had a battle in his inner world & like you say that's why the "instinct" hollow came out which is what destroyed Ulq.. although it was strange this time as didn't SSJ Ichigo speak?.. Was this a sign that Ichigo was in some way/shape or form aware?

Maybe he was in some level of control, he did leave Ishida and Orihime up top. "Oh ****. I tossed a sword at a friend, now I feel like ****."

[Shuma22]

It wasn't Shirosaki. Shirosaki doesn't act like that. It was the mindless Hollow that acts purely on instinct, hence why it protected Orihime.

imo, it's like an auto-pilot, Ichigo and Shirosaki are killing each other in their inner world, so the base instincts take over.

[GilesBeast]

It wasn't Shirosaki. Shirosaki doesn't act like that. It was the mindless Hollow that acts purely on instinct, hence why it protected Orihime.

imo, it's like an auto-pilot, Ichigo and Shirosaki are killing each other in their inner world, so the base instincts take over.

Who are you saying that to? I agree with you? :lol:

How do you explain the "instinct" hollow talking?

[Shuma22]

Who are you saying that to? I agree with you? :lol:

I don't even know anymore. :p

How do you explain the "instinct" hollow talking?

Well, last time that happened, it was when Ichigo and Shirosaki where busy killing each other. So if they're both busy, who takes control of the body? Instinct hollow. Like an auto-pilot for Ichigo's body, at least that's my best guess.

[Myrddin Emrys]

When you think about it, the 'instinct' hollow only said 'help you' a few times. How many brain cells do you think that takes?

[GilesBeast]

I don't even know anymore. :p



Well, last time that happened, it was when Ichigo and Shirosaki where busy killing each other. So if they're both busy, who takes control of the body? Instinct hollow. Like an auto-pilot for Ichigo's body, at least that's my best guess.

Haha. You're probably right. & i'm reading too much into it.

When you think about it, the 'instinct' hollow only said 'help you' a few times. How many brain cells do you think that takes?

7? :D

What i'm trying to get at is that isn't the first time we saw "instinct" hollow talk.. is this much ado about nothing or does it have some relevance? I'm just freestyling here.

[Shuma22]

This is the first time we've seen Instinct Hollow talk, unless HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS is suddenly a new language, i don't remember him talking.

Unless you mean against Byakuya, that one was Shirosaki. Not Instinct Hollow.

[deathkingdome]

This is the first time we've seen Instinct Hollow talk, unless HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS is suddenly a new language, i don't remember him talking.

Unless you mean against Byakuya, that one was Shirosaki. Not Instinct Hollow.

It is the same hollow. There is only one hollow within Ichigo, the difference is with the vizards Hishigo was fighting with Ichigo so i Hishigo did not have complete control. In Uli´s case the hollow took completely over. There was no indication of a fight within his spirit.
As far as the hollow whom faced Byakuya, it was only a partial hollow, that is why he could talk.
They all are driving by instinct. The only difference is how much does the hollow controls Ichigo.
:D

[Shuma22]

Yes and no. Yes there is only one Hollow. No it's not the same.

The one that fought the Vizard was also a "partial Hollow" when the fight started. Yet he didn't talk, yell, or mock the Vizards, and he didn't fight like Shirosaki at all, it acted like a common Hollow, and just swinged his sword around like an idiot, how could Shirosaki be controling the body when he was fighting Ichigo?

When Shirosaki took completly over Ichigo's body however and fought against Byakuya, he fought like he normally does, moving around like crazy, jumping around, spamming attacks, all while yelling and mocking both Ichigo and Byakuya.

Wich one is more similar to the one that fought Ulquiorra? Berseker Hollow Ichigo. Shirosaki would've mocked Ulquiorra and would've answered his question of "who are you?" instead of just yelling like a mindless Hollow.

Also, it sounds like you're implying that full Hollows can't speak when the only Hollow we've seen that can't talk is the Menos Grande, common Hollows and Adjuchas do talk, and one would assume that Vasto Lordes also talk.

And yes, Shirosaki is also driven by Instinct, so was Ichigo when he fought Grimmjow, doesn't mean they're mindless brutes, both are quite smart. Bersker Hollow Ichigo isn't. Jesus, just compare his fighting style with Shirosaki's.

[newb]

It is the same hollow. There is only one hollow within Ichigo, the difference is with the vizards Hishigo was fighting with Ichigo so i Hishigo did not have complete control. In Uli´s case the hollow took completely over. There was no indication of a fight within his spirit.
As far as the hollow whom faced Byakuya, it was only a partial hollow, that is why he could talk.
They all are driving by instinct. The only difference is how much does the hollow controls Ichigo.
:D

I think the 2nd level hollow we saw earlier was a weird combination of ichigo and shirosaki .
it's evident the way it struggled to speak (rescuing inoue ? shirosaki would never do that . and he doesnt have any communication problems either.) , and it took its own sweet time to (attempt to) finish off ulquiorra and stab ishida when he tried to stop it .

[GilesBeast]

This is the first time we've seen Instinct Hollow talk, unless HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS is suddenly a new language, i don't remember him talking.

Unless you mean against Byakuya, that one was Shirosaki. Not Instinct Hollow.

Haha no i don't think it counts.

& i didn't mean Vs Byakuya as i know that was Shirosaki..

[Myrddin Emrys]

I think the 2nd level hollow we saw earlier was a weird combination of ichigo and shirosaki .
it's evident the way it struggled to speak (rescuing inoue ? shirosaki would never do that . and he doesnt have any communication problems either.) , and it took its own sweet time to (attempt to) finish off ulquiorra and stab ishida when he tried to stop it .

I don't know about that. Shirosaki seems to be the type to enjoy violence, but he also seems to be kind of a baser nature of Ichigo. Shirosaki may actually have some feelings for Inoue. Ichigo thinks of her as a nakama at least, who knows how far his Dark Side might want to take that relationship.

[Shuma22]

Again, that hollow was just Berseker Hollow Ichigo, his Instincts said "protect Orihime" hence why he said that.

[deathkingdome]

Yes and no. Yes there is only one Hollow. No it's not the same.

The one that fought the Vizard was also a "partial Hollow" when the fight started. Yet he didn't talk, yell, or mock the Vizards, and he didn't fight like Shirosaki at all, it acted like a common Hollow, and just swinged his sword around like an idiot, how could Shirosaki be controling the body when he was fighting Ichigo?

When Shirosaki took completly over Ichigo's body however and fought against Byakuya, he fought like he normally does, moving around like crazy, jumping around, spamming attacks, all while yelling and mocking both Ichigo and Byakuya.

Wich one is more similar to the one that fought Ulquiorra? Berseker Hollow Ichigo. Shirosaki would've mocked Ulquiorra and would've answered his question of "who are you?" instead of just yelling like a mindless Hollow.

Also, it sounds like you're implying that full Hollows can't speak when the only Hollow we've seen that can't talk is the Menos Grande, common Hollows and Adjuchas do talk, and one would assume that Vasto Lordes also talk.

And yes, Shirosaki is also driven by Instinct, so was Ichigo when he fought Grimmjow, doesn't mean they're mindless brutes, both are quite smart. Bersker Hollow Ichigo isn't. Jesus, just compare his fighting style with Shirosaki's.

I know what are you saying, but have we ever seen Shirosaki fully hollowfied? When Shirosaki fought Byakuya he was controlling Ichigo i agree and he mocked him and talked. But it was a partial hollow transformation as in just a half mask.
What happened to Ichigo when fully transformed, the same happened to Kensei.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.08/04/
He could not talk, all he did was yelling. I think when a Hollow takes a complete form he could not at the beginning say anything since it is probably new thing that happened. His conscious is not there yet so he acts out of instinct in a form of yelling. How could he have the same mask if he did not tap into the power as his hollow. Ichigo´s mask is the same as his fully hollow self.
Look at it logically when something bad happens to someone people can´t sometimes find the words to express feelings if it is too shocking or too sad.
It requires some time getting use to. It is probably the same with hollows they need some time to get use to it. It is just a theory but it sounds logical to me. I do understand what you mean.

[Shuma22]

I know what are you saying, but have we ever seen Shirosaki fully hollowfied? When Shirosaki fought Byakuya he was controlling Ichigo i agree and he mocked him and talked. But it was a partial hollow transformation as in just a half mask.

So why did he act completly different here?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/14/

It's like you said, a "partial transformation"

As for everything else, it doesn't explain why he could talk the first time he came out, but not the next two times. Also, the mask and the hollow change has the same explanation, he somehow evolved to Vasto Lorde. And the Mask has been changing during the whole series since the mask was introduced.

And it's not the same, full Hollow Ichigo had a helmet, not a Mask.

[Al Mighty]

So why did he act completly different here?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/14/

It's like you said, a "partial transformation"

As for everything else, it doesn't explain why he could talk the first time he came out, but not the next two times. Also, the mask and the hollow change has the same explanation, he somehow evolved to Vasto Lorde. And the Mask has been changing during the whole series since the mask was introduced.

And it's not the same, full Hollow Ichigo had a helmet, not a Mask.

Well Shirosaki is supposed to be part of Ichigo's soul and also part of Zangetsu, all 3 of them share the same body. But maybe the new hollow is the full transformation without anyone controlling it, as shown in Byakuya fight, Ichigo knew what was going on when Shirosaki was in control, that's why he apologized and said he wasn't the one fighting. But during Ulquiorroas and Vizards battle, he had no idea what was happening. Maybe when they are in great danger that hollow takes over, both Shirosaki and Ichigo lose control.

But who knows, hopefully Kubo goes more in depth and explains the origins of his hollow and its powers. The current fillers raised more questions about his hollow.

[Shuma22]

EXACTLY. That's exactly my point, Shirosaki isn't in control of Berseker Ichigo, Ichigo isn't either. Imo, it's just an auto-pilot.

[Al Mighty]

EXACTLY. That's exactly my point, Shirosaki isn't in control of Berseker Ichigo, Ichigo isn't either. Imo, it's just an auto-pilot.

But what i wonder is why or more importantly how. The hollow powers are supposed to belong to Shirosaki, how can he not control his own power. It's like the old man not being in charge of zangetsu.

[newb]

I don't know about that. Shirosaki seems to be the type to enjoy violence, but he also seems to be kind of a baser nature of Ichigo. Shirosaki may actually have some feelings for Inoue. Ichigo thinks of her as a nakama at least, who knows how far his Dark Side might want to take that relationship.

the new hollow thing seemed a bit dull . the way it reacted slowly to ishida's pestering . and there is absolutely no proof that shirosaki "might" have feelings for inoue . the only thing on his mind is violence and action . and you completely forgot that shirosaki's a bit talkative and he loves mocking his enemies . this hollow was barely able to speak . seems to be an incomplete transformation , with ichigo and shirosaki both in control to some extent .

[jpidz69]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/06-07/

[jpidz69]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/06-07/

[kuroi_getsuga]

Well, the new transformation couldn't speak maybe because he is Icigo's instinct and at that time, the instinct was to protect Orihime...and beat the crap out of his enemy...

[Starrk_Rules]

Well, the new transformation couldn't speak maybe because he is Icigo's instinct and at that time, the instinct was to protect Orihime...and beat the crap out of his enemy...

you been watchin the fillers, havntcha

[Argon]

I just reread an old chapter and I think I found something.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/11/

Here Ichigo's Hollow says "One becomes the king and dominates the battle while the other is the horse and lends the king his power"

Normally we see Ichigo using his Hollow's power and its quite evident what that is. But what "power" is lent to Hollow Ichigo when he is king? I think its quite evident. Intelligence. I think Hollow Ichigo being just a single solo hollow (with the extreme power of a menos evolution) has the intelligence level of an ordinary hollow, but when he gains control. Such as the battle with Byakuya, he takes over, and borrows Ichigo's intelligence. And in the inner world he's doing the same thing. And if you say that part isn't possible, just think how Ichigo borrows Zangetsu's power by using bankai in the inner world. Same concept.

If we look at the instances where Hollow Ichigo showed little or no ability to speak, Ichigo was either preoccupied (against the Vizards), or incapacitated (dead against Ulquiorra).

This is just a theory, and I encourage criticism or thoughts on this. I'm glad to hear what you guys think.

[vizardspwn]

it's a good theory but hichigo can already talk so why does he need ichgio? with the vizards he was fighting ichigo so it was more like ichigo was in control. but is hichigo really a hollow? he can do bankai and shikai so he seems to be a vizard ( i don't think arrancar because he doesn't have a hole or mask).http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/11/
maybe ichigo realises he's going to hurt some one as shown in the link so he fights with hichigo so he loses his mind as someone earlier says.

[Myrddin Emrys]

I really don't consider Shirosaki to be Ichigo's Hollow. I have never seen evidence that Shirosaki has a hollow hole, and I am more inclined to think that Shirosaki is instead a fragment of Ichigo's mind who can access all of Ichigo's power, both shinigami and hollow, but which has been twisted in some fashion, probably from close contact with the hollow. Ichigo's actual hollow is, in my opinion, primarily a nearly mindless (from the pain, perhaps?) killing machine.

Shirosaki and Ichigo struggle for dominance like people with MPD are known to do. While that happens, the hollow is not suppressed or controlled and embarks on a rampage.

[Shuma22]

Why do people forget that the only Hollows that can't talk are Gillians? Acidwire, Grand Fisher, Shrieker and Chandelier all talked and they where common Hollows.

[Myrddin Emrys]

Why do people forget that the only Hollows that can't talk are Gillians? Acidwire, Grand Fisher, Shrieker and Chandelier all talked and they where common Hollows.

Nothing has been forgotten. The Hollows who talk are all whole (more or less) beings. Ichigo's Hollow is only a fragment. Ichigo's mind refused to let him become a hollow, which is why Ichigo's hollow doesn't have a mind, for all intents and purposes.

[TheSin]

I have a small theory regarding the whole speaking issue. It's evident Shirosaki can speak without having to use ichigo or anything, but i was thinking that the reasons as to why he would not speak during the vizard training (ignoring the fact he was having an inner battle with ichigo at the time, but he didn't speak during the small scene with hiyori.)

Basically when ichigo was taken over during the byakuya fight, that was shirosaki himself channeling through ichigo.

But the other times when it appeared ichigo had been taken over, it was merely ichigo using shirosaki's power (although it was clear he had little control.) but due to the fact he could not control it and also had not put shirosaki in his place, he acted on basic hollow instinct, neither were in control, it was as shirosaki says 'instinct.

I believe the transformation during the Ulquiorra fight is exactly that, ichigo has gained access to whole other level of power, but one he cannot yet handle, rendering him to act on basic instinct.
Shirosaki may very well be getting stronger, but i don't think he's taking control of ichigo again.

Sorry if it's a bit confusing, it's late and i'm very tired, so it may seem like gibberish :P

Although the next chapter will prove very interesting, we'll see if ichigo changes at all, or whether he stays the usual same.

[Shuma22]

I get what you're saying, it's possible, sounds plausible, i like it.

[Robbyh]

Didnt the hollow say : If you want to be able to master my power, dont die again until i show up. :skull:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/221/17/ :cookies:

So like O.o i bet hes gonna come out for Tea soon :D :thumbup:

[.Mase Da Rula.]

why are you calling ichigo's inner hollow shirosaki.. when its name is the same as ichigo's only backwards....

[Robbyh]

why are you calling ichigo's inner hollow shirosaki.. when its name is the same as ichigo's only backwards....

you sir, are to teedious for my pot of tee.

[Myrddin Emrys]

why are you calling ichigo's inner hollow shirosaki.. when its name is the same as ichigo's only backwards....

Ichigo's inner Hollow doesn't have a name. However, since kuro means black and shiro means white, and Ichigo wears a black shihakushou and the inner hollow wears a white one, he gets called Shirosaki.

[Ðalreash]

you sir, are to teedious for my pot of tee.

Lol, if your going to try and act snide, at least learn to spell.

[Reiterrain]

Lol, if your going to try and act snide, at least learn to spell.

lol, if you're going to try to correct someone's spelling, at least learn proper grammar.

[vizardspwn]

shut up!

[GR1M R3AP3R]

what?

[Azakai]

Just pointing this out...Dunno if any of you got this...


Note right arm with darts in shoulder.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/64/12-13/

Note right arm with spikey things on shoulder
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/10/

P.S. Sorry spoiler tags wont work atm....

[Trowa]

Uhm, what are you trying to prove exactly?

The first link is while Ichigo is regaining his Shinigami powers. If you check page 6 of 64 it clearly shows Tessia being the cause of those spikes. As they are apart of a spell he was casting to kill/bind Ichigo. They have nothing to do with Ichigo's transformation.

As for the second link.

I'm not sure what your talking about. Is it the "main" around Ichigo's neck? If so that is part of the transformation. Although what purpose it has isn't known atm.

[Azakai]

LOL No...I'm pointing out Tessai's binding spell's dart thing and Ichigo's right shoulder in the hollow transformation being possibly resultant. I'm not trying to create a conspiracy just pointing out a similarity in the art.

[Skyguy]

hichigo should come out next chapter and slap unohana and make her heal ichigo faster
thats taking forever
then hichigo can kill her and kill everyone good and bad in the fake kanakura town

[GR1M R3AP3R]

hichigo should come out next chapter and slap unohana and make her heal ichigo faster
thats taking forever
then hichigo can kill her and kill everyone good and bad in the fake kanakura town

yaaaaay!!!

[~Rausaro~]

Uhm, what are you trying to prove exactly?

The first link is while Ichigo is regaining his Shinigami powers. If you check page 6 of 64 it clearly shows Tessia being the cause of those spikes. As they are apart of a spell he was casting to kill/bind Ichigo. They have nothing to do with Ichigo's transformation.

As for the second link.

I'm not sure what your talking about. Is it the "main" around Ichigo's neck? If so that is part of the transformation. Although what purpose it has isn't known atm.

The lizard form has that same exact mane, too.

As for Hollow Ichigo.... I hope they can externalize him so he can assault Aizen. THAT would be awesome.

[Inusho]

The lizard form has that same exact mane, too.

As for Hollow Ichigo.... I hope they can externalize him so he can assault Aizen. THAT would be awesome.

Woot, I'm not the only one. :D

[OnliBlackGuy]

haha like a little pet i can see it now
ichigo: i dont feel like fighting..pokihallow, go!

[Skyguy]

haha like a little pet i can see it now
ichigo: i dont feel like fighting..pokihallow, go!

ugh no pokemon in this manga :(
except for shukle http://www.pokemondb.co.uk/images/artwork/shuckle.png
that thing is so stupid looking its bad a**
ichigo should really let his hollow do all the fighting tho the battles go way better when he is in charge

[chaosbringer127]

this guy is total badass.

I can expect an appearance when Ichigo vs Aizen happens within the next few chapters.

[Inusho]

Hollow Ichigo does definitely need to take control for a while. I want some Hollow Ichigo Real World action, dammit. And not his Hollow Hollow form, but his Inner World form. You know, white. Would be more badass like that. I can totally see Hollow Ichigo killing Aizen at this point, anyway.

[urie12]

I want to revisit Ichigo's inner world again. Shirosaki is a better fighter than Ichigo IMO.

[chaosbringer127]

Hollow Ichigo does definitely need to take control for a while. I want some Hollow Ichigo Real World action, dammit. And not his Hollow Hollow form, but his Inner World form. You know, white. Would be more badass like that. I can totally see Hollow Ichigo killing Aizen at this point, anyway.

Yeah his badass level is higher than Aizen's at least. Remember how Byakuya was the "badass", but got his *** handed to him on a platter by hichigo.

[Inusho]

I want to revisit Ichigo's inner world again. Shirosaki is a better fighter than Ichigo IMO.

He is, they're about the same strength, really... But Ichigo suffers from chronic resolve-disorder. That's why he's weaker.

[urie12]

He is, they're about the same strength, really... But Ichigo suffers from chronic resolve-disorder. That's why he's weaker.

Shirosaki know has more moves than Ichigo. Remember the twirling his zanpaktu by the bandage on the handle and than throwing it at the enemy. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/111/06/
Ichigo doesn't do that.

In bankai form Shirosaki used his speed and fired two black getsuga. One in the front and the second at the opponents back. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/08/

Like I said earlier Shirosaki is a better fighter than Ichigo. I can't wait to see his return.

[chaosbringer127]

He is, they're about the same strength, really... But Ichigo suffers from chronic resolve-disorder. That's why he's weaker.

strength does not equal skill.

Pretty sure aizen isn't much more physically stronger than komamura. But Aizen is 1000x more skilled. He can use his strength.

[Inusho]

@Both of you. I know. <_< Personally, I want to see Zangetsu return, just a wee bit more than I do Hollow Ichigo, though. I mean, we haven't seen Zangetsu in like 150+ chapters!

[OnliBlackGuy]

i think zangetsu got eaten by hichigo

[Syed]

i think zangetsu got eaten by hichigo

Wonder if he tasted like chicken:eek2::eek2:

[OnliBlackGuy]

haha. do hollows have taste buds?

[Syed]

haha. do hollows have taste buds?

They can fire large beams of destruction so why not:^_^:

[OnliBlackGuy]

haha

[Kyushini]

I agree with Dimitri, if in every fight Hollow Ichigo took over the battle and the fight was over in say 11 seconds, the manga would be 100% predictable. Of course as it is bleach is 50% predictable. Yet i see the relationship between Ichigo and Hollow Ichigo as this. In my logic, hollow Ichigo is in a sense Ichigo's alter ego. Ichigo has some kind of moral when fighting. This was proved when Ulquiorra had to provoke Ichigo into fighting him. Saying that Inoue had been damaged emotionally, psychologically. Something of that sort. But, also in the second battle between the two of them towards the end, ichigo had said "This isn't the way i wanted to win!. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/19/ Ichigo has set standards on how he seems to want the battle for him to move along. (There is more i can say in this but i would start to ramble so I'm moving on)

Hollow Ichigo on the other side here is just a slaughtering machine. The "embodiment" of Ichigo's killing instincts. The instincts he tries to reject. To hollow ichigo, its seems as to him moral and standards should not be even thought about in battle. And in battle not to think just act and rely on instinct.
(I'll finish this later I'm brain dead.)
For some reason, this made me think of something. When Ichigo was unconscious back on the Ulquiorra fight, Hichigo must have been teaching him how to control the hollow powers in his inner world. I was thinking "This isn't the way I wanted to win" wasn't directed at Ulquiorra but at Hichigo when he became conscious again (and probably forced Hichigo into submission or something). Ulquiorra even seemed a little confused after that. I also think Hichigo has some Zangetsu influence in him as well.

[OnliBlackGuy]

oo? so u think hichigo turned oro on us and ichigo vied for more power, but not in the way he hoped for?

:spin: ugly, but intriguing :spin:

[urie12]

I agree with Dimitri, if in every fight Hollow Ichigo took over the battle and the fight was over in say 11 seconds, the manga would be 100% predictable. Of course as it is bleach is 50% predictable. Yet i see the relationship between Ichigo and Hollow Ichigo as this. In my logic, hollow Ichigo is in a sense Ichigo's alter ego. Ichigo has some kind of moral when fighting. This was proved when Ulquiorra had to provoke Ichigo into fighting him. Saying that Inoue had been damaged emotionally, psychologically. Something of that sort. But, also in the second battle between the two of them towards the end, ichigo had said "This isn't the way i wanted to win!. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/19/ Ichigo has set standards on how he seems to want the battle for him to move along. (There is more i can say in this but i would start to ramble so I'm moving on)

Hollow Ichigo on the other side here is just a slaughtering machine. The "embodiment" of Ichigo's killing instincts. The instincts he tries to reject. To hollow ichigo, its seems as to him moral and standards should not be even thought about in battle. And in battle not to think just act and rely on instinct.
(I'll finish this later I'm brain dead.)

This is why I like Shirosaki. If he take over again Zaraki will get the long awaited rematch till the death.

[SaharaGem]

C'mon, people show Shirosaki some love! We're all well acquainted with Hollow Ichigo but I am hoping in the upcoming chapters that maybe we will be shown Shinji Hirako's inner hollow. That'd be great, though very unlikely. Hey, I can hope, right? Is Hollow Ichigo the only hollow that fights all the time with Ichigo because it seems the other vizards never experienced this exact problem. And I am not referring to when the vizards had acquired their masks by defeating their hollows.

[bagmig89]

well they have all been doing it 100 years longer than him

[SaharaGem]

well they have all been doing it 100 years longer than him
That's true. But I suppose Ichigo could be a special case.

[Captain Aizen]

You all know how Ichigo's mask has been changing periodicly throughout the story. And we all know how his mask has changed in a very dramatic way very quickly? Well what if his mask continues to change, just like it was doing all this time. I know everyone thinks that his mask has changed and is going to stay like this, but what if it keeps changing?
The metaphor I remember about Ichigo is "His spirit Pressure is like a faucet that has been turned on completely and the handle has fallen off, leaving the water gushing out at all times." It seems as though that the more he fights, the stronger he gets (the more water that is pushed out, it remains being pushed out at that rate forever, it can only get pushed more.) I bet this is going to be true about him for the rest of his life, until he finds himself in a world where no one is stronger then he is.

[Inusho]

You all know how Ichigo's mask has been changing periodicly throughout the story. And we all know how his mask has changed in a very dramatic way very quickly? Well what if his mask continues to change, just like it was doing all this time. I know everyone thinks that his mask has changed and is going to stay like this, but what if it keeps changing?
The metaphor I remember about Ichigo is "His spirit Pressure is like a faucet that has been turned on completely and the handle has fallen off, leaving the water gushing out at all times." It seems as though that the more he fights, the stronger he gets (the more water that is pushed out, it remains being pushed out at that rate forever, it can only get pushed more.) I bet this is going to be true about him for the rest of his life, until he finds himself in a world where no one is stronger then he is.

Exactly. Had Aizen not happened at all, and Ichigo was given about two or three years to just train? I mean, the story has progressed perhaps only a year, could be less... And Ichigo is already as strong as he is? Imagine two or three years of straight training/fighting. He would piss on God (Aizen) himself. That's the whole thing with Ichigo, his growth rate, and seemingly unlimited potential which alone puts him on par with Aizen himself. Not literally of course, but I'm sure you get my drift. In Soul Society terms, he's the ultimate genius.

That brings me straight to Aizen. Aizen said he would deal with Ichigo at his leisure or something along those lines. Is he waiting for Ichigo to become as strong as he is, so he can actually fight a worthy opponent?

[SaharaGem]

You all know how Ichigo's mask has been changing periodicly throughout the story. And we all know how his mask has changed in a very dramatic way very quickly? Well what if his mask continues to change, just like it was doing all this time. I know everyone thinks that his mask has changed and is going to stay like this, but what if it keeps changing?
The metaphor I remember about Ichigo is "His spirit Pressure is like a faucet that has been turned on completely and the handle has fallen off, leaving the water gushing out at all times." It seems as though that the more he fights, the stronger he gets (the more water that is pushed out, it remains being pushed out at that rate forever, it can only get pushed more.) I bet this is going to be true about him for the rest of his life, until he finds himself in a world where no one is stronger then he is.

This is why I believe this manga will eventually end in Ichigo's death. His hollow, (or technically whatever it is) will turn into a Vasto-Lorde level beast and wipe Ichigo's conscience from existence. The hollow becomes stronger along with him and seems to always be considerably ahead of him. It'll be too much for Ichigo to be always fighting off Shirosaki. So Ichigo's devouring is kind of inevitable at this point. My opinion.

[GilesBeast]

Exactly. Had Aizen not happened at all, and Ichigo was given about two or three years to just train? I mean, the story has progressed perhaps only a year, could be less... And Ichigo is already as strong as he is? Imagine two or three years of straight training/fighting. He would piss on God (Aizen) himself. That's the whole thing with Ichigo, his growth rate, and seemingly unlimited potential which alone puts him on par with Aizen himself. Not literally of course, but I'm sure you get my drift. In Soul Society terms, he's the ultimate genius.

That brings me straight to Aizen. Aizen said he would deal with Ichigo at his leisure or something along those lines. Is he waiting for Ichigo to become as strong as he is, so he can actually fight a worthy opponent?

Yes. It's like Bison & Ryu.

[Captain Aizen]

This is why I believe this manga will eventually end in Ichigo's death. His hollow, (or technically whatever it is) will turn into a Vasto-Lorde level beast and wipe Ichigo's conscience from existence. The hollow becomes stronger along with him and seems to always be considerably ahead of him. It'll be too much for Ichigo to be always fighting off Shirosaki. So Ichigo's devouring is kind of inevitable at this point. My opinion.

Shirosaki draws his power from Ichigo, thats why he seems so powerful. If anything happens to Ichigo is will be him learning to control his newly found hollow power and diving even deeper into his natural power source.

I think the reason Aizen is so interested in Ichigo is because he and Ichigo are very much alike, Aizen is only older. You see the power Aizen has and yet Ichigo somehow has to grow his power to even greater lengths then Aizen is capable of in order to beat him. I think Aizen knows this. Ichigo being that strong and only at 16-17 years old. I bet Aizens life growing up was on the same lines.

[KasraKhan]

Exactly. Had Aizen not happened at all, and Ichigo was given about two or three years to just train? I mean, the story has progressed perhaps only a year, could be less... And Ichigo is already as strong as he is? Imagine two or three years of straight training/fighting. He would piss on God (Aizen) himself. That's the whole thing with Ichigo, his growth rate, and seemingly unlimited potential which alone puts him on par with Aizen himself. Not literally of course, but I'm sure you get my drift. In Soul Society terms, he's the ultimate genius.

That brings me straight to Aizen. Aizen said he would deal with Ichigo at his leisure or something along those lines. Is he waiting for Ichigo to become as strong as he is, so he can actually fight a worthy opponent?

I hope not. I've seen enough "I only did this to fight a worthy opponent" situations. I want something more real.

Perhaps Aizen wants to use Ichigo's power for something else.

He might be the Gohan needed to awake Buu, for instance.

By which I mean the reiatsu necessary to create the Oken.

[Inusho]

I hope not. I've seen enough "I only did this to fight a worthy opponent" situations. I want something more real.

Perhaps Aizen wants to use Ichigo's power for something else.

He might be the Gohan needed to awake Buu, for instance.

By which I mean the reiatsu necessary to create the Oken.

I'm sure Aizen could just use Yama for that. :P

And, he's dominating the Captains by himself anyway, so he could just destroy the pillars once he's done killing all of them, and then use the souls from KT to make it.

[RandomRider]

I hope not. I've seen enough "I only did this to fight a worthy opponent" situations. I want something more real.

Perhaps Aizen wants to use Ichigo's power for something else.

He might be the Gohan needed to awake Buu, for instance.

By which I mean the reiatsu necessary to create the Oken.

To be completely honest, both Aizen and Gin seem very... interested in him.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/255/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/255/12/

I don't know why, but I got the feeling from that scene that Aizen might actually attempt to recruit Ichigo. They both seem pleased with his growth rate and Aizen seems like the type who would try to turn a foe into an ally if they were powerful enough.

[KasraKhan]

I'm sure Aizen could just use Yama for that. :P

And, he's dominating the Captains by himself anyway, so he could just destroy the pillars once he's done killing all of them, and then use the souls from KT to make it.

Yama-jii might be too dangerous.

If it comes down to the question "Ichigo, sacrifice yourself or I will kill everyone in Karakura Town, including your sisters and your father", what do you think Ichigo would do?

And I still can't shake the feeling that Aizen is specifically avoiding killing people. Heck, he even hesitated to inflict any potentially lethal wounds until Unohana showed up.

[KasraKhan]

To be completely honest, both Aizen and Gin seem very... interested in him.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/255/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/255/12/

I don't know why, but I got the feeling from that scene that Aizen might actually attempt to recruit Ichigo. They both seem pleased with his growth rate and Aizen seems like the type who would try to turn a foe into an ally if they were powerful enough.

I could see the attempt, but it wouldn't go anywhere.

Unless the real reason he kidnapped Orihime and attempted to brainwash her was to tempt Ichigo to join him?

[RandomRider]

I could see the attempt, but it wouldn't go anywhere.

Unless the real reason he kidnapped Orihime and attempted to brainwash her was to tempt Ichigo to join him?

It's possible. But I think he definitely has a use for Ichigo, otherwise he'd have killed him by now.

I must admit though, you bring up a good point. It's like Aizen's been avoiding unnecessary deaths.

[Orochimaru-]

Shirosaki draws his power from Ichigo, thats why he seems so powerful. If anything happens to Ichigo is will be him learning to control his newly found hollow power and diving even deeper into his natural power source.

I think the reason Aizen is so interested in Ichigo is because he and Ichigo are very much alike, Aizen is only older. You see the power Aizen has and yet Ichigo somehow has to grow his power to even greater lengths then Aizen is capable of in order to beat him. I think Aizen knows this. Ichigo being that strong and only at 16-17 years old. I bet Aizens life growing up was on the same lines.

Maybe it has something to do with Ichigo being a "human" shinigami rather
a normal soul, who knows ?

Btw about ur siggy, Aizen's bankai is not perfect hypnosis...
Thats not hack enough...
Aizen's bankai is obviously a sword full of sharingans !!! :D :eban:

[KasraKhan]

It's possible. But I think he definitely has a use for Ichigo, otherwise he'd have killed him by now.

I must admit though, you bring up a good point. It's like Aizen's been avoiding unnecessary deaths.

Which makes me think that Aizen might hate the Soul King for some atrocity that has been committed in his name in the past. It'd be the ultimate irony - Aizen, the perfect villain, is the good guy, and Ichigo is preventing justice.

It just seems so odd.

[Orochimaru-]

Which makes me think that Aizen might hate the Soul King for some atrocity that has been committed in his name in the past. It'd be the ultimate irony - Aizen, the perfect villain, is the good guy, and Ichigo is preventing justice.

It just seems so odd.

Hmm that would be interesting but is not likely to happen.
It would negate the whole "i want to be a god" thing.

Also Aizen was initially portrayed as a good guy and then changed
into a bad guy, chances that will switch again are slim
As u said it would be the ultimate irony

[KasraKhan]

Hmm that would be interesting but is not likely to happen.
It would negate the whole "i want to be a god" thing.

Also Aizen was initially portrayed as a good guy and then changed
into a bad guy, chances that will switch again are slim
As u said it would be the ultimate irony

No, I don't really believe it will happen. But I'm allowed to let my mind wander, right?

I really don't know how Bleach will end.

Also, holy crow we're off topic.

Ichigo's hollow, when will it make its next debut?

This is the first time Ichigo's gone hollow and the chapters haven't been titled "Dark Side of the Universe" and "Black and White", does that mean his relationship with Shirosaki is permanently altered?

Is it possible that the Shirosaki that the fans all know and love is dead, replaced by something much more dangerous and bestial?

[RandomRider]

No, I don't really believe it will happen. But I'm allowed to let my mind wander, right?

I really don't know how Bleach will end.

Also, holy crow we're off topic.

Ichigo's hollow, when will it make its next debut?

This is the first time Ichigo's gone hollow and the chapters haven't been titled "Dark Side of the Universe" and "Black and White", does that mean his relationship with Shirosaki is permanently altered?

Is it possible that the Shirosaki that the fans all know and love is dead, replaced by something much more dangerous and bestial?

Not sure. Shirosaki did vow that when he sees a moment of weakness, he'd take over. I'd think that by now, Ichigo and Shirosaki would have had a conversation by now, especially after the whole "dome moment". Maybe Ichigo made a deal with him at the top of the dome? :shrug:

[KasraKhan]

Not sure. Shirosaki did vow that when he sees a moment of weakness, he'd take over. I'd think that by now, Ichigo and Shirosaki would have had a conversation by now, especially after the whole "dome moment". Maybe Ichigo made a deal with him at the top of the dome? :shrug:

I think we'd be shown that.

My best guess is that the next bit, immediately following the end of FKT, will be Ichigo dealing with his hollow...not learning new moves from Zangetsu.

[Orochimaru-]

No, I don't really believe it will happen. But I'm allowed to let my mind wander, right?

I really don't know how Bleach will end.

Also, holy crow we're off topic.

Ichigo's hollow, when will it make its next debut?

This is the first time Ichigo's gone hollow and the chapters haven't been titled "Dark Side of the Universe" and "Black and White", does that mean his relationship with Shirosaki is permanently altered?

Is it possible that the Shirosaki that the fans all know and love is dead, replaced by something much more dangerous and bestial?

Sure you can :)
And yeah we are off topic :D

About Shirosaki, i hope he will stay around :eban:

[OnliBlackGuy]

ichigo has penty of room to learn a new move from zangetsu. im willing to bet theres more to his zanpaktou then just kamehameha. as cool as his hollow is im kind of tired of it dominating his battles,, thats the one of the few things bleach lacks to me; character development.

[God_2.0]

I think Ichigo dealing w/ Shirosaki is the same as getting new knowledge from Zangetsu, As the story has established, nowadays Shirosaki & Zangetsu are one and the same. And the fact that Ichigo & Shiro have unresolved issues, culminating in the "dome incident" w/ Ulq, have pushed Ichigo further away from mastering his Zan.

[SaharaGem]

I think Ichigo dealing w/ Shirosaki is the same as getting new knowledge from Zangetsu, As the story has established, nowadays Shirosaki & Zangetsu are one and the same. And the fact that Ichigo & Shiro have unresolved issues, culminating in the "dome incident" w/ Ulq, have pushed Ichigo further away from mastering his Zan.

I always thought Shirosaki and Zangetsu were of the same host body, but completely separate entities? Or at least Shirosaki eventually left Zangetsu and separated when he grew stronger. Whatever, I'm confusing myself! Because Shirosaki once said "I am Zangetsu." He is a small part of Zangetsu but not the same. You know what, just ignore me...

[Orochimaru-]

I always thought Shirosaki and Zangetsu were of the same host body, but completely separate entities? Or at least Shirosaki eventually left Zangetsu and separated when he grew stronger. Whatever, I'm confusing myself! Because Shirosaki once said "I am Zangetsu." He is a small part of Zangetsu but not the same. You know what, just ignore me...

Hehehe

I think he said that because he grew strong enough to suppress Zangetsu
rather the opposite in the beginning.

The way i perceive it that both Zangetsu and Shirosaki are the source of
Ichigo's power.. When Ichigo is drawing power from Zangetsu, Zangetsu
gets stronger and suppresses Shirosaki, when Ichigo is drawing power from
Shirosaki the opposite happens

[theshadyone83]

Zangetsu is a zanpakutou born from Ichigo's soul, his hollow is part of his soul. Long story short, Zangetsu belongs to both Ichigo and his hollow, because Ichigo and his hollow are in essence the same person, the same soul. I wonder how long it will take for people to finally understand that...

[TheConBrio]

Zangetsu is a zanpakutou born from Ichigo's soul, his hollow is part of his soul. Long story short, Zangetsu belongs to both Ichigo and his hollow, because Ichigo and his hollow are in essence the same person, the same soul. I wonder how long it will take for people to finally understand that...

I love how you say that like it's undeniable truth. We don't know the specifics on the relationship or what's what. You can make theories but as of right now you don't KNOW it's right. I've already posted my thoughts earlier in the thread.

[Al Mighty]

I love how you say that like it's undeniable truth. We don't know the specifics on the relationship or what's what. You can make theories but as of right now you don't KNOW it's right. I've already posted my thoughts earlier in the thread.

Hey man where you been, long time no see.

[Breakfast]

Actually we know for a fact that Zanpakatou are not born from a Shinigami's soul.

Tousen - Got his from the coffin of his crush

Hitsuguya - His is the strongest ice/water type. This means his Zan had reputation in and of itself before Histuguya ever got his hands on it.

Rukia - Has the most beautiful Zan in SS, this also refers to it having a reputation before her having received it.

Yama - In his case it could just be that he's been around so long that his Zan has gained its reputation, but i doubt it... In any case, by all rights, after he dies at some point a new Shinigami will be able to weild it, so long as they are a prodigy or something.

[TheConBrio]

Hey man where you been, long time no see.

Hrm....Sorry, I don't think I remember you, man. :(


Actually we know for a fact that Zanpakatou are not born from a Shinigami's soul.

Tousen - Got his from the coffin of his crush

Hitsuguya - His is the strongest ice/water type. This means his Zan had reputation in and of itself before Histuguya ever got his hands on it.

Rukia - Has the most beautiful Zan in SS, this also refers to it having a reputation before her having received it.

Yama - In his case it could just be that he's been around so long that his Zan has gained its reputation, but i doubt it... In any case, by all rights, after he dies at some point a new Shinigami will be able to weild it, so long as they are a prodigy or something.

The only one of those that supports the whole "Zanpakutou are not born of a shinigami's soul" idea is Tousen's.

Hitsugaya's zanpakutou got it's reputation by it being the strongest ice-type zanpakutou which was shown through Hitsugaya wielding it. And the same with Rukia's most beautiful zanpakutou. They saw it and said "That's the most beautiful zanpaktou f*ckin EVER" and since everyone clearly agrees (or has never openly argued it) then it's considered that. Where are you getting this whole "refers to before they received it" bit? They never once refer to them as having a reputation before receiving it. Also...Yama's zanpakutou? HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT THAT F*CKIN THING CAN DO? He EARNED that reputation and I guarantee it earned it hella fast. Plus it's been stated repeatedly that zanpakutou are born with their shinigami and die with them.

So basically Ichigo's zanpakutou was born of his soul and is a part of him. I dunno that his hollow is actually a true part of him or just a parasite that was born inside him and has latched on to his immense power. Either way, I still believe that Shirosaki has subdued not just Zangetsu but also GREATLY limited the power Ichigo can draw from his own shinigami powers thus forcing him to rely on his hollow powers in turn empowering Shiro further and, if you're caught up, we saw recently with the latest explosion of super hollow goodness.

[Al Mighty]

Hrm....Sorry, I don't think I remember you, man. :(




The only one of those that supports the whole "Zanpakutou are not born of a shinigami's soul" idea is Tousen's.

Hitsugaya's zanpakutou got it's reputation by it being the strongest ice-type zanpakutou which was shown through Hitsugaya wielding it. And the same with Rukia's most beautiful zanpakutou. They saw it and said "That's the most beautiful zanpaktou f*ckin EVER" and since everyone clearly agrees (or has never openly argued it) then it's considered that. Where are you getting this whole "refers to before they received it" bit? They never once refer to them as having a reputation before receiving it. Also...Yama's zanpakutou? HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT THAT F*CKIN THING CAN DO? He EARNED that reputation and I guarantee it earned it hella fast. Plus it's been stated repeatedly that zanpakutou are born with their shinigami and die with them.

So basically Ichigo's zanpakutou was born of his soul and is a part of him. I dunno that his hollow is actually a true part of him or just a parasite that was born inside him and has latched on to his immense power. Either way, I still believe that Shirosaki has subdued not just Zangetsu but also GREATLY limited the power Ichigo can draw from his own shinigami powers thus forcing him to rely on his hollow powers in turn empowering Shiro further and, if you're caught up, we saw recently with the latest explosion of super hollow goodness.

That's my viewpoint as well. Shirosaki seems to be an invader that just wants to devour Ichigo.

[banana Pickles]

Shirosaki never existed.It was all in Ichigo's mind.

[KasraKhan]

Hrm....Sorry, I don't think I remember you, man. :(




The only one of those that supports the whole "Zanpakutou are not born of a shinigami's soul" idea is Tousen's.

Hitsugaya's zanpakutou got it's reputation by it being the strongest ice-type zanpakutou which was shown through Hitsugaya wielding it. And the same with Rukia's most beautiful zanpakutou. They saw it and said "That's the most beautiful zanpaktou f*ckin EVER" and since everyone clearly agrees (or has never openly argued it) then it's considered that. Where are you getting this whole "refers to before they received it" bit? They never once refer to them as having a reputation before receiving it. Also...Yama's zanpakutou? HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT THAT F*CKIN THING CAN DO? He EARNED that reputation and I guarantee it earned it hella fast. Plus it's been stated repeatedly that zanpakutou are born with their shinigami and die with them.

So basically Ichigo's zanpakutou was born of his soul and is a part of him. I dunno that his hollow is actually a true part of him or just a parasite that was born inside him and has latched on to his immense power. Either way, I still believe that Shirosaki has subdued not just Zangetsu but also GREATLY limited the power Ichigo can draw from his own shinigami powers thus forcing him to rely on his hollow powers in turn empowering Shiro further and, if you're caught up, we saw recently with the latest explosion of super hollow goodness.

What about the zanpakuto Tosen took, then? It's been made clear that zanpakuto do not necessarily die with their owners. But I happen to agree that Hyorinmaru and Sode no Shirayuki are both originally Hitsugaya's and Rukia's.

[Breakfast]

I cant prove that Hitsuguya and Rukia didnt get old/legendary Zans, but i have a feeling that if we read the japanese version it would be clearer and in my favor... (not that that means anything) Any japanese readers out there with the original?

In any case Tousens situation proves my point by itself... Zans are not born and do not die with their current wielder.

[Al Mighty]

I cant prove that Hitsuguya and Rukia didnt get old/legendary Zans, but i have a feeling that if we read the japanese version it would be clearer and in my favor... (not that that means anything) Any japanese readers out there with the original?

In any case Tousens situation proves my point by itself... Zans are not born and do not die with their current wielder.

Which is why Rangiku will use the remains of Gin's zanpakuto to create an extending stick with batteries which she will cover with fur. Just imagine her playing catch with Yammy's dog all alone in her room.

Rangiku: Shinso!!!!!!! Shinso!!!!!!!

Yammy's dog: MEOW! Meow!!

Kira: OMG! dfbsahhfdskfbhskfvcsa :nosebleed:
Hisagi: :pissed:

[OnliBlackGuy]

idk wat that post was about al,, BUT.!!

so im gonna throw this out there...ichigo can use cero's now.

[Inusho]

idk wat that post was about al,, BUT.!!

so im gonna throw this out there...ichigo can use cero's now.

Ichigo? Cero's? Even if he could, you know he wouldn't. He doesn't like anything associated with a Hollow, he even dreads using his mask unless he really needs to. And with good reason.

[Al Mighty]

idk wat that post was about al,, BUT.!!

so im gonna throw this out there...ichigo can use cero's now.

That's great and Ima let you finish...but my post was a space/time paradox!

[OnliBlackGuy]

Ichigo? Cero's? Even if he could, you know he wouldn't. He doesn't like anything associated with a Hollow, he even dreads using his mask unless he really needs to. And with good reason.

he wears that mask like its a trojan and enemies are prostitutes from developing nations. shinji can use em,, why not ichigo? im sure his hollow is stronger anyways

[OnliBlackGuy]

That's great and Ima let you finish...but my post was a space/time paradox!

pahaha everybody always rips on kanye....

[Inusho]

he wears that mask like its a trojan and enemies are prostitutes from developing nations. shinji can use em,, why not ichigo? im sure his hollow is stronger anyways

Because he hasn't learned how? He's terrible with energy-related things. And with how a Cero is structured, he has to absorb reishi from the environment to create the Cero. The opposite of Kido/Getsuga Tensho. Not sure he's figured that out yet...

[Al Mighty]

pahaha everybody always rips on kanye....

Because he is a gay fish.

[OnliBlackGuy]

Because he hasn't learned how? He's terrible with energy-related things. And with how a Cero is structured, he has to absorb reishi from the environment to create the Cero. The opposite of Kido/Getsuga Tensho. Not sure he's figured that out yet...

hichigo used it. twice. and we all know 3rd time's the charm. getsuga is an energy release attack anyway,,cant be so much different from a cero. he's good at compressing, so in theory he should be good at lettin it all out.

[OnliBlackGuy]

Because he is a gay fish.

unless you want ur throat slit and fish sticks shoved in the wound i suggest you explain the joke now!!:awesome:

[Inusho]

hichigo used it. twice. and we all know 3rd time's the charm. getsuga is an energy release attack anyway,,cant be so much different from a cero. he's good at compressing, so in theory he should be good at lettin it all out.

But a Cero isn't like that. To make a Cero, you have to gather the reishi from around you, into a concentrated area to form the Cero. Ichigo doesn't have that kind of control!

[KasraKhan]

So, we all know that Ichigo's hollow was the first one to use the Black Getsuga Tensho, and we all know Kubo has a black/white contrast theme going in Bleach.

His Hollow used a white cero against Ulquiorra. Does anyone else think that Ichigo might develop a new, white Getsuga Tensho?

[banana Pickles]

So, we all know that Ichigo's hollow was the first one to use the Black Getsuga Tensho, and we all know Kubo has a black/white contrast theme going in Bleach.

His Hollow used a white cero against Ulquiorra. Does anyone else think that Ichigo might develop a new, white Getsuga Tensho?

what would be the difference between the black and white? Maybe in the resurrection.

[KasraKhan]

what would be the difference between the black and white? Maybe in the resurrection.

Power or some other BS. What's the difference between black and blue?

[banana Pickles]

Power or some other BS. What's the difference between black and blue?

That could be a possibility.It turns to white because he's using his hollow's powers more but why white? Black is cooler.It's even cooler with red outlines.
Black is darker.

[Inusho]

That could be a possibility.It turns to white because he's using his hollow's powers more but why white? Black is cooler.It's even cooler with red outlines.
Black is darker.

No, Hollow Ichigo's white with light red outlines was way better.

[banana Pickles]

No, Hollow Ichigo's white with light red outlines was way better.

never.They could use black and blue or black and purple like dark rukia.

[OnliBlackGuy]

But a Cero isn't like that. To make a Cero, you have to gather the reishi from around you, into a concentrated area to form the Cero. Ichigo doesn't have that kind of control!

well thats debatable. what started out as a joke i am now going to make an argument out of thin air.!!

well we kno shinigami's use their inside power and send it outwards right?
and as you say a cero is like absorbing spirit energy and shooting it out.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/48/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/49/01/

now in these chapters ishida gives a clear definition of powers(and since he has glasses he is a reliable source). theoritically it shouldnt be possible for shinigami to use a cero at all right?
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/11/

back to ichigo. over the course of the manga ichigo has fluctuated. first he had the ugly sword,,then shikai then bankai. next he used a sloppy GT, then he honed it better in bankai then he learned how to hold off the release against ulquorria http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/09/

he's getting better and better with his control. as far as hollow he gradually progresses. first random mask pop ups, then he can wear it for like 11 seconds, then he can wear it forever. power wise he has high speed regeneration now. cero seems next in line

[Inusho]

well thats debatable. what started out as a joke i am now going to make an argument out of thin air.!!

well we kno shinigami's use their inside power and send it outwards right?
and as you say a cero is like absorbing spirit energy and shooting it out.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/48/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/49/01/

now in these chapters ishida gives a clear definition of powers(and since he has glasses he is a reliable source). theoritically it shouldnt be possible for shinigami to use a cero at all right?
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/11/

back to ichigo. over the course of the manga ichigo has fluctuated. first he had the ugly sword,,then shikai then bankai. next he used a sloppy GT, then he honed it better in bankai then he learned how to hold off the release against ulquorria http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/342/09/

he's getting better and better with his control. as far as hollow he gradually progresses. first random mask pop ups, then he can wear it for like 11 seconds, then he can wear it forever. power wise he has high speed regeneration now. cero seems next in line

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the first part.

And Shinji isn't a Shinigami. He's a Vizard. There's a difference... Also, that wasn't Ichigo that did the high speed regeneration, that was his Hollow. And really, it wasn't much of a high speed regeneration, because it was just reverting him back to his former self. Which, because the Hollow hole happens to be where Ichigo got hit with that Cero, it was removed as well. It does that every time Ichigo regains control, the Hollow Hole disappears.

His Hollow? It's obvious with this latest transformation that Ichigo's Hollow is now stronger than he is. Which is probably why he can't hold his mask on for very long anymore, he'll have to fight his Hollow again eventually... Probably very soon. Also, his Hollow isn't just gradually getting stronger... He's nearly exponentially growing! :P

[OnliBlackGuy]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the first part.

And Shinji isn't a Shinigami. He's a Vizard. There's a difference... Also, that wasn't Ichigo that did the high speed regeneration, that was his Hollow. And really, it wasn't much of a high speed regeneration, because it was just reverting him back to his former self. Which, because the Hollow hole happens to be where Ichigo got hit with that Cero, it was removed as well. It does that every time Ichigo regains control, the Hollow Hole disappears.

His Hollow? It's obvious with this latest transformation that Ichigo's Hollow is now stronger than he is. Which is probably why he can't hold his mask on for very long anymore, he'll have to fight his Hollow again eventually... Probably very soon. Also, his Hollow isn't just gradually getting stronger... He's nearly exponentially growing! :P

me either. but im just clarifying thenatureof a shinigami and its zan. i think...

anywhose im not gonna argue that point because its irrelevant to the main point. so he's a vizard and so is ichigo. meaning he has thepotential to shoot a cero. ichigo only had that hollow hole when he goes full hollow. and thats what high speed regeneration is bra lol it heals yous back to normal. and on top of that ulq said it was

yea his hollow has always been stronger as far as fighting ability. lol and thats even better because he should havecero any day now:ichigo:

[SaharaGem]

me either. but im just clarifying thenatureof a shinigami and its zan. i think...

anywhose im not gonna argue that point because its irrelevant to the main point. so he's a vizard and so is ichigo. meaning he has thepotential to shoot a cero. ichigo only had that hollow hole when he goes full hollow. and thats what high speed regeneration is bra lol it heals yous back to normal. and on top of that ulq said it was

yea his hollow has always been stronger as far as fighting ability. lol and thats even better because he should havecero any day now:ichigo:

Sports or Stretch? :DB::nosebleed:

[Beyond Birthday]

Ichigo needs to have some training by the soul society. He was trained by the human world.Kisuke and yoruichi and the vizards now he the only people who can train him are in the soul society. besides he's been barely getting by ever since he entered heuco mundo.

[RyuuKaze7]

I agree with the secont to last post on the first page b y yman. the hollow is testing its owner and wants them to prevail but not without a fight or a challenge

[Orochimaru-]

Ichigo needs to have some training by the soul society. He was trained by the human world.Kisuke and yoruichi and the vizards now he the only people who can train him are in the soul society. besides he's been barely getting by ever since he entered heuco mundo.

It seems Ichigo never really received any training.... at all.
He was only tought the essentials by Urahara, he definitely needs training

[Crimson_Chaos_Captain_12]

Please, Soul King. Let Hollow Ichigo kill Ichigo.

Yours Truly,
A Bleach Fan that needs to see somethign new and shocking....

Note- Ichigo needs A LOT OF TRAINING! He's like Captain Zaraki. I don't care if he have a bankai.

[Badman27]

why would Ichigo want to use Cero? it's not really his fighting style and he has the attack I refuse to attempt to spell that is basically the same thing (long range wtf power.)

[TheConBrio]

Please, Soul King. Let Hollow Ichigo kill Ichigo.

Yours Truly,
A Bleach Fan that needs to see somethign new and shocking....

Note- Ichigo needs A LOT OF TRAINING! He's like Captain Zaraki. I don't care if he have a bankai.

Don't go comparing some retard who can't fight to the mighty Captain Zaraki. At least that man doesn't pussyfoot around like Ichigo does. He gets right to the point and doesn't do this whole boring "swing left, swing right, swing left, swing right" crap that Ichigo keeps pulling out. The beginning of the fight with Ulquiorra, however, is just what I like. Some actual variety not too mention genuinely effective techniques and moves. At least he's spamming Getsuga Tenshou's effectively now. Well, MORE effectively. I'd just fire 3-4 of em off if just one didn't work. Like he did with the second Grimmjow fight. Expert Getsuga spamming in that fight.

Also, if Ichigo's hollow doesn't wanna kill em....I'm gonna be UBER pissed. I'll probably stop reading Bleach if Tite manages to ruin Shirosaki for me. The only character in that show that I NEVER get tired of. Probably cause he has like 35 minutes of screen-time over the span of the entire series. Which brings me to my next, and quite valid, point.....GET THE F*CK OUT OF THE WAY, ICHIGO! EITHER STAY DEAD OR STOP SUCKING SO MUCH *SS! YOU'RE SLOWING SHIRO DOWN!

Seriously, here soon people are gonna start wondering whether it's Chad or Ichigo lying in the puddle of blood "Nah...that looks more like Renji than Chad."

[Al Mighty]

Don't go comparing some retard who can't fight to the mighty Captain Zaraki. At least that man doesn't pussyfoot around like Ichigo does. He gets right to the point and doesn't do this whole boring "swing left, swing right, swing left, swing right" crap that Ichigo keeps pulling out. The beginning of the fight with Ulquiorra, however, is just what I like. Some actual variety not too mention genuinely effective techniques and moves. At least he's spamming Getsuga Tenshou's effectively now. Well, MORE effectively. I'd just fire 3-4 of em off if just one didn't work. Like he did with the second Grimmjow fight. Expert Getsuga spamming in that fight.

Also, if Ichigo's hollow doesn't wanna kill em....I'm gonna be UBER pissed. I'll probably stop reading Bleach if Tite manages to ruin Shirosaki for me. The only character in that show that I NEVER get tired of. Probably cause he has like 35 minutes of screen-time over the span of the entire series. Which brings me to my next, and quite valid, point.....GET THE F*CK OUT OF THE WAY, ICHIGO! EITHER STAY DEAD OR STOP SUCKING SO MUCH *SS! YOU'RE SLOWING SHIRO DOWN!

Seriously, here soon people are gonna start wondering whether it's Chad or Ichigo lying in the puddle of blood "Nah...that looks more like Renji than Chad."

I see we have a Kenpachi rida on our hands. I know how to deal with you vermin. You shall be purged in the name of Tousen.

BlAcK PriDe 4 lYfE! :buttrock:

[Rulle]

To people who thinks Hichigo is a VL or Adjuchas:

Well, maybe Hichigo IS an Adjuchas or a VL. Zanpakutos "swipes the sins of Hollow away" when killed by a Zanpakuto. If old-man-Zangetsu and Hichigo are the same being, Zangetsu takes care of Hollows' sins and same time Hichigo somehow absrobs the Hollows reiatsu, kind of eats it. Don't know how and would it be possible even in Bleach but still I don't see it impossible. And I also don't know if this was explained clearly enough.

[emilian]

uuummmmm is ur post relevant?