[Theory] Rikoudo - Rinnegan and his relation with Sharingan [Archive]

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panos,greece

03-14-2009, 07:30 PM

Hello people. Before we start I want to point out that this theory is highly based on lore, manga facts, speculation from my side, personal interpretation of the manga . Also, I would like to say that the theory will most likely include some mini theories that will connect the dots and make the whole theory comprehensive and easily understood. If you want to reply, I ask you kindly to read the whole text before doing so. There is a chance your questions will be answered throughout the text.

Hinduism important to read
According to Hinduism, three supernatural entities exist which are known as the Trimurti. They are Brahma the creator, Visnu the maintainer or preserver, and Śiva the destroyer or transformer. The Trimurti (literally indicating three forms or trinity), is the representation of the three projections of the Supreme Reality, each with a specific cosmic function. These manifestations are that of Brahma (serving the cosmic function of creation), Vishnu (serving the cosmic function of renewal and preservation), and Shiva (serving the cosmic function of dissolution or destruction that precedes re-creation) – the three popular Hindu gods. Our daily existence reflects these three cosmic functions as birth, life and death. To go on, it is widely accepted that each of them represent represent earth, water and fire respectively. The earth, or Brahma, is seen as the originator of all life and hence is regarded as the Creator. Water is the sustainer of life and hence is the Preserver and is represented as Vishnu. Fire destroys life and hence is the Destroyer and is represented as Shiva.

Some more Hinduism. At the beginning of the process of creation, Brahma, created eleven Prajapatis, who are believed to be the fathers of the human race. He is also said to have created the seven great sages or the Saptarishi to help him create the universe. However since all these sons of his were born out of his mind rather than body, they are called Manas Putras or mind-sons or spirits. Brahma's vehicle is a divine Swan. This divine bird is bestowed with a virtue called Neera-Ksheera Viveka or the ability to separate milk and water from a mixture of the two. The significance of this is that justice should be dispensed to all creatures, however entwined it might be in a situation. Also, this virtue indicates that one should learn to separate the good from the evil and then accept that which is valuable and discard that which is worthless or evil.

Shiva is a major Hindu god, and one aspect of Trimurti. In Tamil, Shiva literally means "the supreme one". Tamil "Siva" means Red. Both Shiva and Rudra are viewed as the same personality in a number of Hindu traditions. Rudra, the god of the roaring storm, is usually portrayed in accordance with the element he represents as a fierce, destructive deity and he is described as the "Father of the Maruts", a group of storm gods. Some usual attributes of him are: Crescent Moon: Shiva bears on his head the crescent of the moon. Serpents: Shiva is often shown garlanded with a snake. Finally, Śiva is a god of ambiguity and paradox, whose attributes include opposing themes.

I do not want to say anything about Vishnu because he is not referred in my theory at all. Only keep in mind that he was called Vishnu the maintainer or preserver.

RIKOUDO in the ancient years

So, back in the past when anarchy predominated in the world a man , who could be characterized providential, came and put the foundations of the ninja system by giving birth to ninjutsu itself, this man was known as Rikoudo sennin, the sage of the six paths and one can say that he was the ‘father’ of ninja world.
There is no denying, that it was like he was chosen by ‘somebody’ from heaven to fulfil a goal unknown to many. In order, to succeed his goal, he was provided with a tool from heaven, the Rinnegan. One of the many powerful abilities of these eyes is that it allows the user to control six bodies, that each one of them share the rinnegan. Not only that, but they make the current user (Nagato) think that he is a god. So inspired by Hinduism, I believe Brahma the creator, chose a man who could fulfil his goal and this man was rikoudo sennin. He made him his ‘son’ because he saw the necessary potential in him. Not only he selected him but he also provided him with a tool from heaven ,with amazing powers, that gave him the ability to create even moon. As I wrote previously, according to Hinduism Brahma was the creator of the seven sages, and if we at the same time see the naruto world we will notice the parallel between these two worlds. Both in Hinduism and naruto, Brahma created the concept of the seven sages in order to complete his task. (You may wonder and say that in naruto world there are only six sages but according to Hinduism there are seven so what is the connection between these two? I have to say that although there are six sages-paths they are all controlled by one user of the rinnegan the ‘chosen’ one making him the seventh sage.) Also according to Hinduism, god Brahma had a swan as his vehicle. This swan had the ability to separate good from evil and deliver judgement. The connection between the swan and Konan is obvious, so I believe I do not have to elaborate more on this. Finally here is a picture of Brahma according to Hinduism http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Brahma_Halebid.jpg and here we can notice that pain is standing on a statue with three faces http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/424/07/ . I can assume that this statue is either made as a worship for Brahma or either for the holly trinity. One thing is for sure, that this is no coincidence.

Rikoudo and the questions about him

Anyway, we all know that for some unknown reason rikoudo sennin did not have any descendants to carry on his will. There is no known clan who has the rinnegan, in fact it is confirmed in the manga that such clan never existed. But why is that? Rikoudo knew that he was going to die someday why didn’t he have children? Is it that he did not like any woman enough to have kids with her? Is it that he was not liked by anyone? Or maybe something else, like he knew that he was never going to die? Or maybe he had children but for some unknown reason they did not have rinnegan?
Judging from the current user and his arrogance of power, his abilities, the fact that he thinks he is never going to die (I am talking about nagato) I am pretty sure Rikoudo himself knew he was immortal and so I am convinced that what has happened is what I have underlined. But still, rikoudo is confirmed to be dead. Why and how did he die, taking into account that he was immortal? Who killed him? And why is that even if he is dead and without any known descendants to form a clan someone else has rinnegan? And finally have his children died? So I write this theory to explain the answers to all these questions and generally the connection between sharingan and rinnegan. So if you want to know the truth, keep reading.

Rikoudo and his life

To begin with, it is common knowledge now that rikoudo received rinnegan and put order in the world plus the fact that he was the first ninja. But how is that after rikoudo, ninjas started being produced? If we take into account that he was the first ninja and had no children how is that possible? I assume (one more time inspired from Hinduism) that the other god from the wholly trinity, Vishnu the maintainer, gave to a woman another tool with divine properties, the Byakugan. And having the role of the maintainer that woman identified rikoudo with her eyes and rikoudo her with his eyes and so they had two children both of them having byakugan (and by this way the the ninja world maintained). And that I how ninjas started existing. But the story now begins. The two sons of rikoudo competed with each other trying to prove their worth to their father in order for him to select one of them to give them the power of rinnegan. Well if you wonder, how is it possible that rikoudo give rinnegan to one of his son. It is the same way how it is passed from one person to another until know ( see how nagato obtained rinnegan) and how the aspect of the seven sages is created. For example if we take a closer look at this picture http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/03/ and you will see two candles placed behind the sage. Why did Kishimoto include those random candles in the image? Allow me to quote something interesting from Wikipedia under rebirth: For example, a flame is transferred from one candle to another, or a fire spreads from one field to another.

The beginning of everything

So, the process is easy. When Rikoudo finally decided and chose one of his sons, the one who was not selected was enraged and tried to kill his brother but he did not succeed and he was banished. Roaming in the world, he finally found a woman and had children with her. But one night when there wa crescent moon, Shiva the antagonist of brahma approached him and offered power. He told him that if he gave to him his soul he would give him as an exchange eyes stronger than byakugan, powerful enough to cope with rinnegan. Not only that but he also told him that being the master of fire himself, he would enable him to use fire proficiently. So the young man corrupted by his will for power gave his soul to the evil god ,and it was then when the powerful tengu Sojobo took his soul. His byakugan eyes evolved and became red ,the colour of Shiva, and were named Sharingan. It would be nice if you read (if you haven’t already) this theory on sojobo. You will notice that there are hints of sojobo’s being everywhere . Some more lore here. Tengu is the same being as garasu, if you notice this page you will see birds similar to garasu.
Many characteristics of the god Shiva can be found in the uchiha clan. For example the crescent moon, check the manga (itachi)
Snakes? check the manga (sasuke)
ambiguity and paradox, whose attributes include opposing themes?check the manga (madara)
(It is interesting to note here that each of these characteristics are connected to a different uchiha member,for example snakes with sasuke, moon with itachi and madara with ambiguity and paradox)

The battle

One of the many attributes of sojobo is his shapeshifting ability. The young man with sharingan decided that it was time to get revenge and kill his father , rikoudo sennin. Having confidence in himself knowing that he could rival with his new powers his father, he changed his form concealed his eyes and returned to his family lying that he admitted that what he has done in the past was wrong. His brother was extremely happy that his long lost brother was for once again with him but sadly enough he did not know that the true reason he had come back was to kill their father.(note here that sojobo, being a bird and not being noticed by his brother who had byakugan is why no huyga has complete 360 vision) After some time, the young man with sharingan decided to set in motion his plan and so challenge his father.

When they finally battled, rikoudo witnessed the true power of sharingan .Unable to cope with the unparalleled powers of his son, rikoudo was forced to summon eight tailed beasts to assist him in the battle. Now his son was the one who was in a very bad situation. After realising that there would be no way he could win even with his sharingan ,he asked Shiva for more power.
Shiva replied to him telepathetically, and told him that if he wanted more power he had to sacrifice the purity of all his descendants forever-he had to accept that he and all his descendants will be cursed forever. The young man blinded by revenge accepted. Then the god Shiva, being the god of fire, summoned a tailed beast even more powerful than the other eight, he summoned the fire fox kuybi. The man with the sharingan managed to use kuybi but for the cost of being cursed. Nevertheless the battle was for one more time even. Then, Rikoudo sennin understanding that he could not defeat his son used an extremely powerful teqnique in order to seal his son forever. He used Chibaku Tensei. The same teqnique nagato used to capture kuybi. But the power of the jutsu Rikoudo used was much more greater and bigger than nagato’s. It was in that fight, with this jutsu , that he created moon. But rikoudo being exhausted from the whole fight he died after using this jutsu. His son unable to do anything was sealed forever in the moon, while kuybi was set free appearing when human malice gathered. Sadly enough this happened before rikoudo transfered rinnegan to his other son. But his wife using a forbidden jutsu and at the cost of her life made it so that the rinnegan will transfer to somebody each time the user dies, still with less power.

So I believe that is what has happened in the past. I made this first part of theory based on the few things we know. Still they are not random things I just imagined. Now let’s go to the current time.

Part2

Wars for one more time started. There were clans fighting clans. But two were the most powerful and renown. The senju and the uchiha clan (uchiha clan consists of the descendants of the son of rikoudo who was sealed) During one of these wars a young boy named madara was born. He was specially talented and his chakra was one of the best even among the uchihas. As he grew older and more powerful he became the leader of the uchiha clan. As the leader of the uchiha clan he fought with Shodai who was the leader of the senju clan. As madara fought with shodai his name and fame became more and more well known. But because he and his clan became more famous they made new enemies constantly. So his brother offered his eyes, in order for madara to become more powerful. But in the end both clans were exhausted from the endless fighting . So when the senju offered a truce everyone except madara willingly agreed. Madara was angered and wondered for what has his brother died. Nevertheless being the leader of his clan he had to listen to their needs and so he accepted. Still the diferencies were not settled. When the time to choose a hokage came there was a dispute between madara and shodai. Everyone chose shodai , but madara knowing that the uchiha clan started losing its supremacy –link- 399 08.Chose to oppose Hashirma. However there was no one who would follow him and as a result Madara felt he was betrayed and he left the village.
What was madara doing during this period?

Madara during his absence
Now has anyone wondered what has he done during this period of time? I am sure madara being the former leader of the uchiha clan knew the secret and the relation between kuybi and sharingan. He searched for the legendary fox in order to gain power but he could not find it. Consumed by revenge he was in a desperate situation and he did not know what to do. It was then when his ancient ancestor who was sealed in the moon appeared before him and told him everything about the uchiha past, the rinnegan ,rikoudo and kuybi. Madara who was now angry because he was betrayed, asked from his ancestor to give him strength to fight his rival shodai. He replied to madara that he could not give him all his powers yet because he was sealed in the moon but he could give him enough strength to be undefeatable and immortal. So sojobo who was still in the first uchiha’s soul transferred into madara and gave him mystical powers like teleportation and immortality. He also gave him kuybi to control. Lastly he told madara that if he wanted all his powers he had take the eyes of another uchiha member who would have much power and potential enough to unseal him from the moon. Madara fascinated with his new powers agreed to everything and so he started his plans. First of all he had to fight with hashirama and make it seem he loses so he would have all the time to prepare and execute his long term plan.

Final piece of my theory
This is not my post, but it explains my theory very well. Credits to sh.

How and why did Madara lose, given that he engaged Hashirama many a time prior to the battle at the VotE?

If anything, it wasn't Madara, the immortal, who was getting weaker. Madara was never weak, and still isn't; he took out half of Uchiha relatively recently, possesses the pinnacle of space-time techiques, threatened Team Hawk, and defeated a bijuu easily. If Itachi was stronger, there is no reason Itachi wouldn't have killed him; in fact it would have been in Itachi's interest to have Madara dead for certain reasons.

However, Shodai died shortly after that battle. Whether or not Shodai was sick prior to the fight, or killed by wounds from that battle is uncertain. However, it is noteworthy that Shodai distributed the bijuus relatively early on, probably before the battle with Madara (as he died soon after). We weren't shown any other bijuus at the VotE either. Thus, it would have been Shodai with a fewer number of bijuus, and Madara would have remained as powerful as he still had the Fox.

So, if the equation in the era of wars prior to Konoha read like this:

Shodai + Bijuus = Madara + Fox

and Madara is immortal, then theoretically, Shodai could not have won at the VotE. In other words, Madara made it appear so to deceive everyone. This would make perfect sense if:

2) There was no point in killing Shodai at the VotE.

Hashirama was a hero, to both Senju and Uchiha, as well as the Fire country at large.

His own clansmen favored Shodai, and called Madara power-hungry, selfish and fratricidal . Thus, even if Madara killed Shodai, he would have been seen as a treacherous rebel. He would not have been crowned Hokage and embraced by the village, but instead hunted by the entire nation of Fire as the terrorist who killed their great hero Hashirama. Therefore, it would not have been in Madara's interest to even win this battle. So why did he fight there? Madara faked his death. It is explained below.

3) To accomplish his plan in the long run, Madara needed to disappear by fabricating his own death.

Madara says he felt betrayed by his clan prior to the VotE battle. He made peace with Senju, but notice he makes mention of hatred and irreconcilability as he is compelled to sign the treaty. He then states he was betrayed and he left the village. Ironically, I think this is where Madara's betrayal started. This is where he decided that he was going to have his revenge, and he started planning. In order to defeat a mighty village like Konoha, which had exceptional ninjas and only the strongest clans as constituents as well as the mysterious and famous 'will of fire', Madara knew it would require more than just a lone man on a rampage. He would have to concoct a long-term master plan. As an immortal, Madara always had time on his side.

I believe that when Madara left the village for the first time, he had worked out the beginnings of his plan. At this point, he may have secured a position or gained some allies in the Mist or he could have founded Akatsuki. In any case, the foundation was layed. However, Madara needed to vanish from history in order to further his plans; if Konoha knew he was alive and scheming, ANBU teams and cooperation with other villages (Shodai made peace with other nations and gave away bijuus) would hinder Madara's plans. It would certainly help keep suspicious ninjas like Jiraiya off his trail. Therefore, Madara needed to fake his own death, and he did so with great success at the VotE. What happened was exactly what Madara wanted; he was forgotten by everyone, even 'history'..

Note that Madara appears to be stabbed through the chest with a sword, much like our friend Tobi, and on both occasions, he played dead. I wonder whether it did him any harm at all....I don't think Madara left behind a corpse though, and thus Jiraiya's suspicions had a basis.
Part 2: Madara and Uchiha

I don't believe Madara's intention was to destroy Konoha when he unleashed the Fox. It was all done to frame Uchiha. If Madara was actually serious about destroying Konoha, he should have attacked himself with the Fox (he is one of the strongest of all time and can control the Fox and utilize it more effectively), had the Mist village invade as well, used Akatsuki ninjas (if they were around at the time), and used Danzou's ANBU as well possibly. Furthermore, sending a lone Fox to a village brimming with S-class ninja would not have been wise; we have already seen various Akatsuki defeat bijuus and powerful jinchurikis. The yellow flash had quite a reputation, and so did the 3rd hokage. Therefore, I believe Madara actually did it to frame Uchiha rather than to destroy the village.

Regardless of whether Madara is Danzou or just an ally, the two worked together to frame Uchiha and justify a massacre order. The spoiler below explains how exactly Madara used the Fox and eventually exterminated the Uchiha clan.
Madara and the Uchiha Brothers

The timing of the Fox attack is extremely significant. One may think that at any time after Shodai's death, Madara could have unleashed the Fox.

But why then?

Because of Itachi and Sasuke; a potential EMS pair. As soon as Sasuke is born, and the prodigy Itachi has a brother, Madara unleashes the Fox and acts on his plan to get revenge on Uchiha, almost as if he was waiting for a Sasuke/Itachi pair to appear. Note that if Madara had actually destroyed the village using the aforementioned means, Sasuke and Itachi might actually have been killed. This explains why exactly Madara had not destroyed Konoha by that time.

One may ask how rare is EMS potential? Well, it's about as rare as the Rinnegan; the Rinnegan has appeared twice in history, and the EMS has only appeared once, but the potential has appeared twice. The reason for this is that an EMS requires two extremely talented people to be born at around the same time and in the same clan: Uchiha.

Madara and Itachi

The Plan:

So, the Fox attack and the massacre could have all been part of Madara's plan to produce an EMS. Actually, Madara may have engineered the massacre and actually anticipated 'Itachi's plan for Sasuke' ahead of time, and even have initiated the massacre plan just for that reason. Madara had been keeping an eye on Itachi: he was well aware of Itachi's peaceful nature, and this made Itachi's actions predictable; if given a choice, Itachi would chose to save more people i.e. Konoha over Uchiha. Madara probably got him into ANBU through Danzou in the first place as well.

Madara also saw to it that Sasuke was strong enough (possibly through Sai, Orochimaru, and Deidara) to achieve EMS. He then made sure that Itachi's plan went through successully by stalling Naruto and gang, and immediately recovering Sasuke after the battle and awakening Sasuke's MS.

Itachi and Akatsuki:

Madara may even have kept an eye on Itachi through Kisame. Kisame may have murdered the Feudal Lords on Madara's (Mizukage) orders (possibly political reasons), and joined Akatsuki on his orders (directly or indirectly) too; Madara also paired him with Itachi, to keep a check on Itachi. For example, he knew Itachi was very ill and taking medicine, and obviously since Madara himself (or anyone else) wasn't anywhere near Itachi (nor is there evidence Itachi wrote to Madara to inform him about his own health), Kisame is most likely his source.

Madara had it planned all along. He told Itachi about Akatsuki, and that he founded it. This compelled Itachi to go there, because Itachi would have wanted to keep a check on Madara's (and Akatsuki's) activities. There were only three possible ways to do this:

- Go to the Mist (assuming Madara is Mizukage, but I won't get into that), but it wasn't an option
- Remain in Konoha to watch over Danzou (assuming Danzou = Madara), but again not an option
- Go to Akatsuki, and observe the activities of Madara's personal selection of criminals; the only viable option. Murdering your clan adds greatly to your Akatsuki application form, and it helps when that's precisely where Madara wants you to be.

If this is true, and 'Itachi's plan' is really a smaller part of Madara's big plan, then Zetsu's remark makes a lot of sense; Madara has waited a long time......many decades to get an EMS and wipe out his clan. Madara immediately stresses that Sasuke is the most important part, possibly because of his EMS potential. I won't go into speculation about whether Madara has uses for Sasuke without EMS, or why exactly he wants to create another EMS, but the point is that for one reason or another, Madara has a vested interest in Sasuke. Sasuke is extremely important to Madara, and has been for a long time.

Conclusion

Madara staged his own death, and escaped Konoha. He devised a long-term plan, possibly to destroy Konoha and/or rule the country or even more, and Sasuke is an important part of Madara's plan. The Sasuke element has influenced many of Madara's actions.

If most of this theory is true, then Madara has indeed managed to deceive pretty much everyone, including the readers so far....

So shatteredhope’s theory explains very well the plan and goals of madara uchiha. He did all these for another ems user with potential. He prepared everything for sasuke ,in order to sacrifice him and gain the whole power of his ancestor and not a portion of it.
SUMMARY
A brief summary for those who have not read it: In the past rikoudo sennin was provided with tools from heaven.He then had two son. He had to choose one to carry on his will. When he chose one the other became nagry and left. During his leave he also obtained mystical power. He then fought with his father rikoudo sennin. The 9 beasts were summoned during this fight. Rikoudo unable to defeat his son who had sharingan sealed him in the moon dieing in the process. Back to the future now. Madara a new but powerful uchiha member was born. He then became the leader of his clan. An alliance between senju clan and uchiha clan was decided. Madara has doubts about this truce. Then there is a dispute for the seat of hokage. Everyone selects shodai. Madara decides for the good of his clan to fight shodai. Noone supports him. He leaves (like his ancestor) and roams the world. His ancestor appears before him and transfers a part of his soul giving him unbelievable powers and tells him that if he wants to take all his powers he has to unseal him from the moon. To do so he has to find another ems user who is evil. Madara accepts and starts his long term plan.

Jinchuuriki

03-14-2009, 09:24 PM

You've put a lot of time and research into this theory, and I'm impressed. Even though a good portion of it is speculation, it very nicely connects the Rin'negan to the Byakugan and Sharingan, and how the Sharingan evolved from the Byakugan.

I like the whole father vs. son thing, but how could a Sharingan be stronger than the Rin'negan? EMS? Even if it was the first, I don't understand how it could compete. But from recent events in the manga, it's highly possible that RS sealed something highly powerful within the moon.

But how does RS aqquire the bijuu? Does he create them? If the Rin'negan could control them, Nagato would have gotten them himself, no need for Akatsuki.

uchiha-zed

03-14-2009, 09:24 PM

nice man...
thank you for the information....
did you got it from kishimoto himself?

Ojii-san

03-14-2009, 10:12 PM

@ panos,greece (http://forum.onemanga.com/member.php?u=24980) :

Great as always really Nice job , doumo arigatou gozaimasu , Keep up the good Work !! and Good Luck For the Future ...See ya arounf Dude !!

doomguy

03-15-2009, 12:16 AM

Parrarels are very good.

The candles would mean also something different, it would mean HOW rinnengan is passed, that the process is not exatcly controlled by user of the eyes(like Nagato would have got eyes from rock chunnin, but its not confirmed wether he got or not). Also i remember candle as important piece of scenery in Madara-Sasuke talk but it can be completly insignifact to the story.

Also Sasuke in your theory is evil and currently he is pure in manga. Also i think rebuilded Yin/yang theory about Madara/Sasuke eyes would fit somewhere to.

I assume the father-son and 8 tails summon are all speculations yea ?

Nonetheless good theory to read, interesting i wouldn be shocked if 30% of this would happen in manga.

Your theory made me check up few things in manga.

SephRo

03-15-2009, 12:23 AM

nice man...
thank you for the information....
did you got it from kishimoto himself?

i think its a theory, but i like the info thanks for the thread.

Laks

03-15-2009, 01:09 AM

You have put a lot of research in your Theory, my knowledge and understanding of Naruto is no where near yours. But I do know about Hinduism and as you based your theory on Hinduism, I like to point out some mistakes.
Basically In Hinduism Vishnu and Shiva are far more powerful gods than Brahma( In Power as used in a manga). It is because their jobs ie Preserving and Destroying need more power than Creating. Brahma is more like a source of Knowledge, he Creates the world but won't interfere with Human activites, that the job of Vishnu. So there is no point in Rinnegan existing after Rikoudo sennin's death. And the current user of Rinnegan wants to destroy things to make peace which is more like Shiva's job.
And about Sharigan and Shiva. Destroyer doesn't mean he is an evil god, he destroyers evil and he judges people and maintains heaven and hell. But also he gives boons to everybody without making a difference of good or evil. So its possible that he gives Sharigan to the evil brother. And in Hinduism Vishnu will be the one to protect the world from an evil person who got a boon from Shiva not Brahma. But Byakugan is not strong enough to protect the world.

calamity

03-15-2009, 02:20 AM

Ozaffer

03-15-2009, 09:50 AM

I agree Kishi could have got some ideas from Hinduism and other religions/mythology's as for the begging of everything and the battle it was a nice story.. Fiction writers normally take from other ideas such as story's and religion and make their own world out of it so I would bet nothing is going to be exactly the same as any one religion but a new story created from a collective of ideas.

Aphrodisiac

03-15-2009, 12:39 PM

Ur idea is pretty original Panos, so it was interesting to read. But, I can't see Naruto story cross into Hinduism. Its based more on Shinto/ Buddhism... only overlaps I see is the Rinnegan being referred to as the samsara eye. But Buddhism also uses that meaning, and I think in almost the same context. Plus, I think Gaara's name means An Asura that loves himself - Asuras would be ones the demons opposing the Devas (gods) in Hinduism.

Well I expect people to say the manga will b more inspired by Buddhisam than Hinduism n its understable but the very fact of the matter is Buddhism was originated in India n Gautam Buddha was the crown prince of a Hindu state. Hinduism has a lot of influence over Buddhism............Karma n many other dogmas' of buddhism is taken Hinduism so there will b simmilarity. For eg when I saw the name of the realms of Pein I though they were taken from Hindu mythology cause they are sanskrit names n those words somewhat signify's different aspect of life/universe. So as these relegions are interwined parelles will all b there.

Panos ur theory is good n at some places it fits damn nicely. But this line below doesn't.
Shiva the antagonist of brahma approached him and offered power

U see u whole point of view as to how Sharingan came into being is very brittle. As Lakhs somewhat already pointed out Brahma is somewhat a subordinate of Shiva. Shiva is kinda the most powerfull out of all the Hindu deity's. So in no way does ur theory of the birth of Sharingan stands. Might I suggest creation of another angle [ Relegious sentiments], I know ur good enough to come up one on ur own xD but this might be a possible angle.

Let just assume after being defeated he went into wandering n started to meditate[Tapasya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapasya)] of Lord Shiva. After years of hard meditation Shiva was pleased with his tenacity n decided to appear infront of him n grant him what he wantd. And hence he wished for a eye tech powerfull enough to stand against Rinengan. Though perplexed one might b God's don't go back on their words so Shiva reluctantly gave him Sharingan but knowing everything he did so with some terms and as u said burning in revenge he accepted them all . Now during his fight with his father he asked for assitance from Shiva n he appeared and the rest fits ur theory easily.

And by the way great theory. Tell me how much time do u spend searching for all this stuff :). Cheers!

pow

03-15-2009, 04:18 PM

man what a great theory. i am impressed.how long did it take you to write it??

panos,greece

03-16-2009, 01:33 PM

[/SIZE][/B]multiple reply

Jinchuuriki

i admit that a good portion of it ,as you said, is speculation,but i have never seen any good theory about rikoudo sennin and so i decided to make it (i still prefer my other theory: Madara' plan about sasuke,have you read it?)

now on your questions:you ask how could a rinnegan be inferior to sharingan. well if we judge from the current best-users madara and pain-nagato respectively ,we can see that madara bosses around pain. isn't this a sign of superiority? the thing about the moon was what made me create and connect the dots. If we have not seen-read this page about moon this theory would have never existed.

And your final question:why do you believe that if rikoudo created the bijjus nagato should be able to catch them all?

Doomguy

yes i thought of what you say about the candle and i checked just before i post the theory but i believe it is insignificant.

Laks

Well i do not think kishi will explain the power in differences if they will ever be mentioned.But there is a reason that rinnegan should exist.To counter balance the sharingan (yin-yang theory)
Well i agree that pain wants to destroy things,but he wants to destroy things in order to create a new world.Futile dream or not, does not matter.
Byakugan is not strong enough to protect the world?well , no one can be sure about how strong byakugan is really.

Aphrodisiac

i know,this was the part that was the most difficult to think. i liked your mini theory.Can you elaborate a liitle more?

and finally thank you everyone...:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

iClaymore

03-16-2009, 01:43 PM

Gottheim

03-16-2009, 04:15 PM

Wow, man! Now, that's impressive!
Pity Japanese lore is not my forte. Just a little precisions here and there:

-If you consider the SX Paths of Pain to be "sages", the seventh one clearly is Nagato. However, it should be noted the whole Rinnegan and Rikudou stuff is more closely related to the Buddhist conception of fate, afterlife and reincarnation. Unless you consider there's more to it than the apparent connection I've just highlighted.

-In chapter 375-376, we learn that rinnegan was a legend to Fukasaku. As the Toad was over 800 years old (databook info) we can assume Rikudou Sennin was already a myth before his time. So Rinnegan appeared for the first time some 1000 years ago at least. According to your theory, Uchiha and Hyuuga would be just as old. And they'd have actual gods among their ancestry. I especially like the bit about the Uchiha founder somehow cursing himself and his whole clan to obtain control over Kyuubi.

But there's a little problem: Madara is the first Uchiha to obtain MS, and with it the means to control the Fox. Unless there's still some Uchiha lore we don't know about, he was the first to control the fox. I have a similar theory (link in my sig), but it involves the actual Uchiha founders (not Madara) bargaining with Kyuubi himself, and for normal sharingan only (Sharingan, a tool of Evil). The Kyuubi-control was an unpredicted side-effect.

-I personally have a more down-to-earth approach as to how ninjas were taught their art: chakra is generated by merging physical and spiritual energy together. Something anyone can do with the proper training, it seems. Rikudou Sennin merely taught this to the rest of mankind, I think. Rinnegan was clearly a godsend, but kekkei genkai probably existed before it, as XMen-like natural mutations. Rikudou merely showed those people the extent of what they coud do.

-Then I'm not so sure of Rikudou's immortality. Judging by Nagato's case, Rikudpu was probably a mortal human, only more powerful. I also think creating the moon is what killed him. He was probably trying to rid the world of a threat of some sort, and had to sacrifice his life to do so. Maybe that threat is what the bijuu come from: when it realized it was going to lose, it created them in an attempt to get revenge (a la Piccolo Daimaou from DB), and the bijuu have plagued the world ever since.

That's all I can think of for now. I have no idea if there are actual deities roaming around in disguised as humans, and as I said, Japanese/Buddhist mythology isn't my forte. Another interesting part of your theory talks bout how Rikudou might have fathered Uchiha and Hyuuga. I've made my qualms known, but if we broaden the scope a little, I can see the following happening:

-Rikudou's children are relatively normal, but they are able to create and manipulate chakra just lilke him. Those people in turn have children, and with the passing of time, a significant portion of humanity can learn and use ninjutsu. Every once in a while, minor mutations (not necessarily doujutsu) will appear, bringing their bearers closer to the common ancestor of all ninjas, and giving birth to specific bloodlines whenever the trait was successfully carried to descendants: these became known as Kekkei Genkai.

Its not always the stongest that is the leader but most of the times the smartest.In real life, yes. Not so much in fiction. Especially action manga. Anyway, it doesn't matter which one is stronger between Rinnegan and Sharingan. In the end, the better ninja always makes the difference. As Zetsu said, sharingan (or whatever) is just a tool. Madara's not stronger because his doujutsu is superior (rinnegan is better). But because he's just that good.

Nina

03-16-2009, 04:47 PM

Wonderful theory Panos!!! Hats off 2 u!! I find very few theories that actually keep me reading through the whole thing and this was one of those rare ones. A wonderful read!

Sadly enough this happened before rikoudo transfered rinnegan to his other son. But his wife using a forbidden jutsu and at the cost of her life made it so that the rinnegan will transfer to somebody each time the user dies, still with less power.

This is something I don't understand. You say the wife made it such that the rinnegan will transfer to someone when the current user dies. So that means when the Sage died, it must have transferred to someone right? How is this 'someone' decided? I mean, on what basis? Inheritance? Or did you mean something else by that statement?

Another question about the same is- If each time a rinnegan user died, the eyes transferred to someone else, that's almost the same as inheriting the rinnegan right? If thats the case then someone would have noticed it before, and the rinnegan would never have been a myth. Jiraiya says he's never heard of anyone to ever possess the rinnegan.

One more- what is the significance of the Sage himself being unabble to do the transfer and the wife having to do it?

Thanks... and sorry for the trouble... :o

TheTomato

03-16-2009, 05:27 PM

But there's a little problem: Madara is the first Uchiha to obtain MS, and with it the means to control the Fox. Unless there's still some Uchiha lore we don't know about, he was the first to control the fox. I have a similar theory (link in my sig), but it involves the actual Uchiha founders (not Madara) bargaining with Kyuubi himself, and for normal sharingan only (Sharingan, a tool of Evil). The Kyuubi-control was an unpredicted side-effect.

Well, in recent history, if the Uchiha are really that old there could have been others.

Its a good theory, but its a little too mystical for my taste. The eye justus could just have been a by product of evolution.

dbm

03-16-2009, 05:44 PM

But one night when there wa crescent moon, Shiva the antagonist of brahma approached him and offered power.

Rikoudo sennin understanding that he could not defeat his son used an extremely powerful teqnique in order to seal his son forever. He used Chibaku Tensei. The same teqnique nagato used to capture kuybi. But the power of the jutsu Rikoudo used was much more greater and bigger than nagato’s. It was in that fight, with this jutsu , that he created moon.
you see the problem in the timeline you created? :)

pow

03-16-2009, 07:08 PM

you see the problem in the timeline you created? :)

i laughed so much:lol:
Man, you have a keen eye. i did not notice that:P
I want to see what he will answer:confused:

Aphrodisiac

03-16-2009, 08:10 PM

Ozaffer

03-16-2009, 08:21 PM

Lol.............Rikoudo creating the Moon itself...... lol that's not just happening . It is just the name of the ultimate jutsu of his atleat that's the idea I got while reading the manga. And panos I will send a msg to u elaborating the sub-plot when I'll get time to do so.

umm no there is no reason for Nagato too have said when Rikoudo used that techinique he created the moon besides that he actually created the moon itself.

silver senpai

03-16-2009, 08:31 PM

I personally thought this was a good theory,especially explaining the weakening of the Rinnegan while the EMS was now stronger. I will admit that all of it plausible,but it is a theory. You have convinced me to start doing research on my own,even though it seems like alot of work, but thats the basis for good plausible theories. KUDOS to you for a thoroughly good read.

pow

03-17-2009, 10:46 AM

Lol.............Rikoudo creating the Moon itself...... lol that's not just happening . It is just the name of the ultimate jutsu of his atleat that's the idea I got while reading the manga. And panos I will send a msg to u elaborating the sub-plot when I'll get time to do so.

as ozafer said what is the point of nagato telling so?i think he really meant it...

Aphrodisiac

03-17-2009, 01:55 PM

He might hav meant it; damn it's just my opinion man..............everyone has a different one. U 2 might b right........I just gave my point of view.

PoliticalThreat

03-17-2009, 02:30 PM

This is just mere conspiracy lmfao.
This reminds me of the time when people thought Madara was the son of a tengu and a Hyuuga.

Of course Naruto is the result of Kishimotos Hinduism obsession.
Hinduism is everywhere - You guys forget that the concept of chakra comes from Hinduism, arrogance merely having you kiddies over-look it each time because of your radical minds.

This theory would be nice if it were a creative writing paper but nothing else. Rikudou Sennin gave birth to Ninjutsu, possiblty having the intillect and capability to create thousands of Ninjutsu of all sorts of elements because he had them all.

The Candles are symbolic, nothing more. Yes, The Rinnegans are only possessed by those who're chosen or in fact the Rikudou lineage. Rikudou-Sennin was never confirmed to never have a child. Maybe he procreated with a various of women, who knows but it takes decades, hundreds of years for something to evolve such as the concept of The Rinnegan - Byakugan - Sharingan speculation.

panos,greece

03-17-2009, 10:02 PM

Ozaffer

03-17-2009, 11:48 PM

@gottheim. thank you alot. you know i admire you being one of the best around here , and having with you one of the best arguments(itachi-jiraya, edo tensei)
now on to your questions:i knew before i post this theory that a certain someone (cough-wraith-cought) would tell me that kishi is mainly inspired by japanese folklore. but the similarities between hinduism and naruto are so abvious that i felt obliged to post them.

2it is logical that you assume that madar was the first one who has tamed kuybi and obtained ms-ems but who does say that? can you give me a manga page ?and then wiil answer to you>

3i think you conradict yourself. first you say that humans with special abilties-talents existed before rikoudo but you say next that can you elaborate a little more?

finally how can you judge if sb is immortal or not? then can you tell me if madara is immortal?if you tell me then you will have your answer.

I have stated earlier that story tellers take ideas from multiple sources to create their own story Kishi probably took ideas from multiple Stories/Religions to come up with his own ideas.

I didn't go back and reread but from my memory he didn't contradict himself he said and it's stated that Rikoudo was the founder of the ninja world. Which means he had the capability to control chakra like the ninja we see today. He probably taught others how to control chakra and each group of people he taught passed down that information generation to generation until the clans we have today.

Then for Doujutsu he was saying Rikoudo could have had children it's never sated he didn't, the Sharingan and Byukigan could be genetic derivatives from the Ranningan that got passed down threw the generations. While the Ranningan itself is a rare genetic trait (or a gift from god) how ever you want to look at it, that has only been known to have shown up twice in history.

Hope I got the idea right it's been awhile sense I read the post.

dbm

03-18-2009, 12:02 AM

umm no there is no reason for Nagato too have said when Rikoudo used that techinique he created the moon besides that he actually created the moon itself.

I think the reason is that in that statement he compares himself to rikudou.. He is basically saying he is not (even close to being) as strong as the legendary sage of six paths. This is a way to make it more credible when naruto eventually defeats him.

Ozaffer

03-18-2009, 12:52 AM

I think the reason is that in that statement he compares himself to rikudou.. He is basically saying he is not (even close to being) as strong as the legendary sage of six paths. This is a way to make it more credible when naruto eventually defeats him.

your right your right, I was hasty in interpreting the Manga word for word it could be Nagato was saying that when the Sage used that techinique he created a ball so large it was comparable to a moon or something. but the moon is made from a chunk of the earth in real life so I wouldn't be surprised if in Kishi's story Nagato actually meant the Sage created the actual moon. Either way the sage created something that huge so he must have been pretty damn strong. Makes me wonder if Nagato has some more tricks hidden up his chair.

Benzini

03-18-2009, 12:59 AM

I think the reason is that in that statement he compares himself to rikudou.. He is basically saying he is not (even close to being) as strong as the legendary sage of six paths. This is a way to make it more credible when naruto eventually defeats him.
He doesn't really compare himself to the S6P, he compares their balls :D

Nagato says that what he is doing isn't as much as what the S6P did.

This could be because he decided to make a smaller "moon," or because he doesn't have enough strength to make a larger one, which is understandable considering what he has done to this point.

So we don't know how Nagato compares to the Sage when it comes to strength.

----
And Naruto has already lost his battle.

So Pein will be defeated by Kyuubi, or he'll be defeated by himself.

Somehow, I doubt even the original Rinnegan wielder could match Kyuubi.

----
And nice theory panos. I don't necessarily buy it, but still a great effort.

krippleh

03-18-2009, 02:33 AM

I bet Sage of six path completely overshadow Nagato since he created the moon.

Seems like he overshadows everything so far.

ShatteredHope

03-18-2009, 11:10 AM

Good job putting it all together!

You've been working on the theory for a long time, and only recently finished it with the reference of the moon by Nagato.

I like some of your ideas. People do make pacts with Gods in Naruto e.g. Death God, Susanoo. Until now, there is some sort of a Demon figure (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/) associated with Sharingan that has yet to be explained, and I talked with Benzini about similar ideas. Such an event would also explain the curse.

I also think, as many others do, that Rikudo possibly sealed something very powerful in the moon; something that saved the world; that's what Rinnegan is supposed to do. Also, the idea that this power can be unsealed is interesting.

Regarding the bijuu. I have also long since held that the appearance of bijuu was related to the Sage because Nagato is the one who summons the statue in which the bijuu are sealed. Also, I cannot imagine that human beings could survive in a world of bijuu without ninjutsu to protect themselves, even if there are only 9 bijuu.

Okay, the issues:

- As Gott said, I think Nagato is more like the swan; he passes judgment. But I guess they don't have to match exactly, as I've heard Kishi doesn't stay true to his source every time.

- Sage was not immortal; Nagato isn't, and the Sage isn't around; this is proof enough.

- Regarding how Rinnegan is passed: that forbidden jutsu you described hardly seems possible as events would have to take place after the user dies. Additionally, the fact that none of the inheritors activated Rinnegan is also equally unlikely. The Rinnegan is not inherited; it is a tool from the Heavens that appears when needed. Rinnegan is the stuff of legends; there isn't a bloodline carrying it.

- I don't think all ninjas are descendants of the Sage. Thing is, everyone has chakra and can potentially use ninjutsu to varying levels. If Sandaime was never taught ninjutsu, he would be a normal person, just like how Naruto couldn't manipulate wind before he was trained.

However, I have recently begun to believe that the Rinnegan imparts knowledge to its wielder. This would explain how Nagato knows about the moon and the Sage, and how Nagato could manipulate all the elements by ten, and how the Sage became the first to use the elements. Nagato was never trained in all the elements by Jiraiya; I assume Jiraiya couldn't use all of them himself, and we know that training for each element is unique, which is why Naruto had to go to Asuma. Just like the Sage, Nagato had the understanding of ninjutsu he needed.

The Rinnegan user is enlightened with knowledge, and has to use it to pass judgment on whether to destroy the world or save it. Sage decided to save it, Nagato decided to destroy it, but he has overlooked Naruto and does not have the faith Jiraiya had in Naruto and is thus ignorant of main character no jutsu.

- Itachi clearly says Madara and Izuna were the first to awaken the MS (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/06/).

- You're saying that Madara obtained his powers (teleportation and immortality) after Konoha was made? The fact is Madara had EMS even before Konoha, when he took his brother's eyes; the immortality came from there as far as we know. Also, the teleportation probably came from there, and IIRC there's a recent DB ref that states that the MS is a tool that can manipulate space and time; the teleportation is likely an MS/EMS technique. All MS techniques thus far have some space-time qualities, and I wrote a post about this earlier. Also, in my theory I imply that Madara's MS and the kyubi are how he fought Hashirama in the first place; otherwise, Madara would have died, and Itachi clearly says Madara used the EMS's power to take Uchiha to the top.

panos,greece

03-18-2009, 01:56 PM

Good job putting it all together!

You've been working on the theory for a long time, and only recently finished it with the reference of the moon by Nagato.
thank you:D

I like some of your ideas. People do make pacts with Gods in Naruto e.g. Death God, Susanoo. Until now, there is some sort of a Demon figure (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/) associated with Sharingan that has yet to be explained, and I talked with Benzini about similar ideas. Such an event would also explain the curse.
i know.something to note here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/
on the skull of this demon we see something peculiar. and then we see something similar here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/ hm interesting?were the demons already inside the uchiha clan?

- As Gott said, I think Nagato is more like the swan; he passes judgment. But I guess they don't have to match exactly, as I've heard Kishi doesn't stay true to his source every time.
i have to disagree here. rikoudo was not the swan. and i will augment my statement by this here we see a strange weapon pain uses (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/01/) but according to the myth
It was Brahma who suggested to Indra that a special weapon, Vajra (literally meaning a diamond or the thunderbolt), be made with human bones. He further said that a sage by name Dadheeci (dadheeci) was spending his days in deep meditation with the singular aim of attaining salvation. He would gladly give his bones for the purpose. (Not clear why the bones of a living person were required) (now another one of my speculations is that this weapon was made by yahiko)
It is a short metal weapon that has the nature of a diamond (it can cut any substance but not be cut itself) and the nature of the thunderbolt (irresistible force).

The vajra has come to represent firmness of spirit and sprirtual power. This is ritual tool or spiritual implement which is symbolically used by Buddhism.

Vajra is the weapon of Indra, the Vedic god of rain and king of Devas.

pain can manipulate rdevas are also some what like gods.

They are also in the 6 Six realms which has connections to samsara, and samara eye means the rinnegan.

So there are two connection to this weapon that relate to pain.

The senju clan symbol also looks identical to the Vajra

And there is one big connection between pein and the 1st and that connection is madara.

- Sage was not immortal; Nagato isn't, and the Sage isn't around; this is proof enough.
to you is madara immortal?
- Regarding how Rinnegan is passed: that forbidden jutsu you described hardly seems possible as events would have to take place after the user dies. Additionally, the fact that none of the inheritors activated Rinnegan is also equally unlikely. .
what do you mean that events would have to take place after the user dies?can you explain?the fact that you first say that 'the fact that none of the inheritors activated rinngan is unlikely' and then 'The Rinnegan is not inherited; it is a tool from the Heavens that appears when needed. Rinnegan is the stuff of legends; there isn't a bloodline carrying it' is contradicting youself.How can it be unlikely that it is not inherited to one of his sons and at the same time given only to those who are chosen?
- I don't think all ninjas are descendants of the Sage. Thing is, everyone has chakra and can potentially use ninjutsu to varying levels. If Sandaime was never taught ninjutsu, he would be a normal person, just like how Naruto couldn't manipulate wind before he was trained.
i agree with this. i guess i have to edit some things in the theory so as to make it more understandable, i guess.
However, I have recently begun to believe that the Rinnegan imparts knowledge to its wielder. This would explain how Nagato knows about the moon and the Sage, and how Nagato could manipulate all the elements by ten, and how the Sage became the first to use the elements. Nagato was never trained in all the elements by Jiraiya; I assume Jiraiya couldn't use all of them himself, and we know that training for each element is unique, which is why Naruto had to go to Asuma. Just like the Sage, Nagato had the understanding of ninjutsu he needed.
exactly.that is why i believe that if nagato gains this knowledge then rikoudo is the one who chooses the next user of the eyes.
The Rinnegan user is enlightened with knowledge, and has to use it to pass judgment on whether to destroy the world or save it. Sage decided to save it, Nagato decided to destroy it, but he has overlooked Naruto and does not have the faith Jiraiya had in Naruto and is thus ignorant of main character no jutsu.
i disagree.yes nagato wants to destroy the world but in order to create a new one a better than the previous one.so it is how you interpate it.isnt it?
- Itachi clearly says Madara and Izuna were the first to awaken the MS (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/06/).
the first ones according to him. but if i remeber correctly sasukes dad clearly said that during the uchihas history there were few who have achieved ms sharingan. FEW certainly does not mean two people. also even the toad who is 800 yeras old said that rikoudo is legend. how would itachi know about his ancient ancestor?
- You're saying that Madara obtained his powers (teleportation and immortality) after Konoha was made? The fact is Madara had EMS even before Konoha, when he took his brother's eyes; the immortality came from there as far as we know. Also, the teleportation probably came from there, and IIRC there's a recent DB ref that states that the MS is a tool that can manipulate space and time; the teleportation is likely an MS/EMS technique. All MS techniques thus far have some space-time qualities, and I wrote a post about this earlier.
sorry pal but neither you nor i do we know that teleportation is a jutsu of ems. and immortality as stated by madara is due to the fact that he has strong chakra. something to augment my theory:we have no indication that madara used the fox before he fought with hashi . it is obvious that he used it during his roaming in the world and at the time that his ancestor gave him the opportunity to engage the fox. and as i say in the theory madara cursed himself pretty much like his ancestor did. so that is why kuybi says that madara has sinister chakra.

i am a little exhausted.so i will answer to you guys another time(i have not forgotten you nina :P)

Also, in my theory I imply that Madara's MS and the kyubi are how he fought Hashirama in the first place; otherwise, Madara would have died, and Itachi clearly says Madara used the EMS's power to take Uchiha to the top.[/QUOTE]

Gottheim

03-18-2009, 03:40 PM

now on to your questions:i knew before i post this theory that a certain someone (cough-wraith-cought) would tell me that kishi is mainly inspired by japanese folklore. but the similarities between hinduism and naruto are so abvious that i felt obliged to post them..Indeed. And just to drive the point home, Pain's entire character in based upon Buddhism. I know very little about Hinduism, but I'm positive about the Buddhism part.

it is logical that you assume that madar was the first one who has tamed kuybi and obtained ms-ems but who does say that? can you give me a manga page ?Ask and you shall receive. Itachi does (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/06/). Madara=first MS user, and MS is needed to control Kyuubi, so Madara=first person ever to control Kyuubi. And how could I miss that link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/05/)?:D

i think you conradict yourself. first you say that humans with special abilties-talents existed before rikoudo but you say next that can you elaborate a little more?Not a contradiction but a concession. I still believe rinnegan wasn't the first Kekkei Genkai ever, and that people with special abilities and the potential for ninjutsu existed before Rikudou's time. He's just the one who innovated, set up the basics, and organized the whole thing into a coherent system.

My concession is: assuming you're right, ninjas are probably descended from Rikudou. All of them, and not just Hyuuga and Uchiha. He had children, those children had children, and so forth, until generations later, the bulk of the human race had high chances to have him somewhere in their ancestry.

finally how can you judge if sb is immortal or not? then can you tell me if madara is immortal?if you tell me then you will have your answer.Konan said Nagato's giga blast would shorten his lifespan. It wouldn't be a problem if he was immortal, since by definition, imortals don't have a lifespan to worry about. Maybe Rikudou found a way to become immortal, but it wouldn't be inherent to his rinnegan, as Nagato doesn't seem to have such a thing.

panos,greece

03-18-2009, 04:36 PM

Ask and you shall receive. Itachi does (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/06/). Madara=first MS user, and MS is needed to control Kyuubi, so Madara=first person ever to control Kyuubi. And how could I miss that link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/05/)?:D
of course. but as you have said the toad who was 800 years old thought that rikoudo was just a legend which means that what my theory describes happened at least 1000 years :eek: before the cuurent time. how could itachi a young boy know about something so old? and what would be the point of telling sasuke something like this?
Not a contradiction but a concession. I still believe rinnegan wasn't the first Kekkei Genkai ever, and that people with special abilities and the potential for ninjutsu existed before Rikudou's time. He's just the one who innovated, set up the basics, and organized the whole thing into a coherent system.
in my point of view before rikoudo, existed before people with special genetics.so after rikoudo and the sons of his sons marrying wives with these special genetics, keke genkais and other special blood line limits were born, being in the possesion of their children.
My concession is: assuming you're right, ninjas are probably descended from Rikudou. All of them, and not just Hyuuga and Uchiha. He had children, those children had children, and so forth, until generations later, the bulk of the human race had high chances to have him somewhere in their ancestry.
exactly :thumbup:
Konan said Nagato's giga blast would shorten his lifespan. It wouldn't be a problem if he was immortal, since by definition, imortals don't have a lifespan to worry about. Maybe Rikudou found a way to become immortal, but it wouldn't be inherent to his rinnegan, as Nagato doesn't seem to have such a thing

you still have not answered my question. whats the matter? :P

Gottheim

03-18-2009, 04:55 PM

how could itachi a young boy know about something so old?Simple. Madara told him.:P By the way, Madara lived at the time of Konoha's foundation. Plus nothing seems to indicate he is any older than a century or so.

you still have not answered my question. whats the matter?What question? The one about Madara's immortality? Then the answer is no. All I have to go by is Itachi's word, and he says Madara is immortal. So I simply assume he is, until proved otherwise. Which reminds me: at least Madara's been described as immortal. Rikudou hasn't.:devil:

panos,greece

03-18-2009, 05:01 PM

Simple. Madara told him.:P By the way, Madara lived at the time of Konoha's foundation. Plus nothing seems to indicate he is any older than a century or so.
lol.i am talking about his ancient ancestor.how could itachi know anything before madara uchiha?how could he know that there was no one who had ms?
What question? The one about Madara's immortality? Then the answer is no. All I have to go by is Itachi's word, and he says Madara is immortal. So I simply assume he is, until proved otherwise. Which reminds me: at least Madara's been described as immortal. Rikudou hasn't.:devil:

lol. orochimaru if you remember said that sasuke was stonger than four tails kuybi.was that a fact?

ok...it is time to answer to your questions.
@nina.thank you a lot.you are one of the oldest around here posters and i really value your opinion.
now to your questions:based on the little information we have about rinnegan and the fact that nagato managed to learn all the lements without having someone to teach him plus the fact that he knew some secret information about rikoudo i assume it is rikoudo himself who decides about the next user.
though the jutsu casted was so as to pass the rinnegan to another user , it did not have to appear in every generation. so nagato can easily be the second user of rinnegan.
rikoudo could not trasfer himself the rinnegan because he was exhausted from the battle ,he did not have enough chakra , and he did not want to sacrifice himeself in order to make the rinnegan passable but in order to seal his son.i hope i answered your questions.

The guy with the moon@ lol.you made laugh that day.of course something similar to moon existed or else humanity would not exist. rikoudo just created the moon as it is known in the manga.

@benz thank you a lot.and i agree with your post i think nagato is weaker than rikoudo the legend.

Gottheim

03-18-2009, 06:37 PM

lol.i am talking about his ancient ancestor.how could itachi know anything before madara uchiha?how could he know that there was no one who had ms?History. The Uchiha clan has a hideout with all its secrets and info written in there. Itachi and Sasuke talk about it in chapter 385. Obviously, if you think Itachi somehow couldn't see the whole picture, then technically, I can't prove you wrong. But you'll have a much harder time proving that an MS user existed prior to Madara, cause the manga says absolutely nothing to support that idea.

orochimaru if you remember said that sasuke was stonger than four tails kuybi.was that a fact?In that case, we had proof that Oro wasn't speaking literally. Oro was crippled when Sasuke attacked him (he was much healthier when he fought mini-Kyuubi), and Sasuke still had to go all-out. So by comparison, MS-less Sasuke V.S mini-Kyuubi would have been squashed.

I said I'd believe Madara to be immortal until proved otherwise. Now I'm waiting for the "otherwise" part...:D

Kidomaru

03-18-2009, 08:20 PM

Chp. 336 pg. 4 Kakuza says " Nah... No one Is Immortal". Seriously who would know better than 100+ yr old w/ 5 hearts.

I know who... Kishi, the words might as well of come from kishi's mouth.

Ojii-san

03-18-2009, 09:57 PM

Chp. 336 pg. 4 Kakuza says " Nah... No one Is Immortal". Seriously who would know better than 100+ yr old w/ 5 hearts.

I know who... Kishi, the words might as well of come from kishi's mouth.

Kakuzu Didn't Know that Madara was Alive :D and Kakuzu had no Idea About MS Or EMS , So There is Only Itachi Who can Tell us More About Madara ans EMS as An Uchiha himself and a MS User , As Gott says :)

krippleh

03-19-2009, 03:22 AM

Ojii-san

03-19-2009, 09:23 AM

I say bull**** to immortality. If they were they wouldn't be villains.

I'll bring up DBZ. Kid Buu always regenerate if he got at least 1 cell alive. Vegeta questioned if he is immortal. No he wasn't.

He got killed at the end. They wouldn't be immortal if they are a villain. There is always a catch.

Like Vamp from Metal Gear Solid. His so called Immortality was his secret.

To be Immortal, In The NARU-VERSE does not mean that the person cannot be defeated, or killed. But He can't Die By Age , Or Sickness , But He can Be Killed .

as For Vamp Of MGS , it's another case , Vamp Was Immortal Because Of Naomi's Nano Machines Without Nanos , No So Called Immortality

krippleh

03-19-2009, 09:45 AM

I wasn't trying to spoil it for MGS fans.

Ojii-san

03-19-2009, 10:01 AM

I wasn't trying to spoil it for MGS fans.

Ok I See :D Then I Should say O Fans Of MGS 4 Forgive My Terrible Mistake :bow:, So Thanks ANYWAY And see ya Dude !!

panos,greece

03-19-2009, 07:21 PM

History. The Uchiha clan has a hideout with all its secrets and info written in there. Itachi and Sasuke talk about it in chapter 385. Obviously, if you think Itachi somehow couldn't see the whole picture, then technically, I can't prove you wrong. But you'll have a much harder time proving that an MS user existed prior to Madara, cause the manga says absolutely nothing to support that idea.
no,you are wrong gott.we have manga proof, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/07/ and http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/08/ so it is obvious a few does not mean only two people(madara,izuna)
In that case, we had proof that Oro wasn't speaking literally. Oro was crippled when Sasuke attacked him (he was much healthier when he fought mini-Kyuubi), and Sasuke still had to go all-out. So by comparison, MS-less Sasuke V.S mini-Kyuubi would have been squashed.

I said I'd believe Madara to be immortal until proved otherwise. Now I'm waiting for the "otherwise" part...:D
i disagree. what oro said,he really meant it.also in the small engagement we did not see a real fight between oro and sasuke.but still,i could be wrong.
and when i say madara is immortal i mean that he cannot die by illness,age or anything like that. he can be defeated,although he is a strong dude.

ShatteredHope

03-19-2009, 08:02 PM

@ panos

Yeah, all the Uchiha here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/) are strange: an X on the chin, a third eye etc. Add to that the demonic entity (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/), and also the gem-like object on Susanoo's forehead (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/04-05/).

On to business:

1) Your explanation for the inheritance of the Rinnegan does not make sense. But his wife using a forbidden jutsu and at the cost of her life made it so that the rinnegan will transfer to somebody each time the user dies, still with less power.See, his wife died. But later, every time a Rinnegan user dies, the inheritance is transferred. The jutsu is being utilized after the user's death, which does not make sense. Unless you're going to say that every wife of potential Rinnegan user performed the jutsu, which wouldn't make sense because Nagato's parents were killed, so his mommy never did the jutsu.

Furthermore, is it only inherited by one son? What if that son dies before he has children? In an era of war, that would have happened somewhere along the line in the family considering the 1000s of years....
There is no way this bloodline lasted if it was so fragile because only one person inherited it. You should have said that the Rinnegan-potential is inherited by all descendants.

But there is still a problem if all the descendants have the Rinnegan: Why hasn't anyone activated it in the thousands of years? Talent is inherited e.g. 4th/Naruto, so many of Rikoudou's children should have done it. Why only Nagato? You're complicating matters. You should just stick to the manga: Rinnegan is a tool of heaven that appears when needed.

2) And yes, a few people have awakened MS, but Madara and Izuna were the first. The ref was given earlier. The other few awakened it after them, during the era of clan wars.

3) Madara is immortal until proven otherwise. Immortality is cheap; outstanding ninjas do it easy e.g. Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu etc. Why is it so difficult to believe that Madara, the strongest ninja from the strongest clan, has achieved it through his friend and brother? Furthermore, Itachi says Madara is strong, and killing half of Uchiha, threatening Team Hawk etc.

4) You're saying that Madara obtained his abilities when he left Konoha, way after EMS. That is difficult to believe. I am very certain that Madara's ST-abilities are a product of his sharingan, but I won't press the point. Btw, my theory states that Madara used the Fox to fight Shodai before Konoha was made, which doesn't go with my theory that you quoted.

5) As Gott said, other KG have nothing to do with the Sage. KG depend on genes, and genetic mutations existed before the Sage. But okay, it's possible that both the byakugan and sharingan came from the Sage, but then one would have expected Nagato to have a byakugan before, am I right?

Panos, I cannot say I agree with you. You also lack strong manga backing. But like many others, I appreciate you work though :)

Ozaffer

03-19-2009, 08:06 PM

no,you are wrong gott.we have manga proof, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/07/ and http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/08/ so it is obvious a few does not mean only two people(madara,izuna)

i disagree. what oro said,he really meant it.also in the small engagement we did not see a real fight between oro and sasuke.but still,i could be wrong.
and when i say madara is immortal i mean that he cannot die by illness,age or anything like that. he can be defeated,although he is a strong dude.

Saskue's dad said a few because it's been said (by Itachi) that some uchiha followed in Madara's footsteps trying to achieve MS from killing their brothers and friends. From what we know Madara and his brother were the first Uchiha to gain MS anything else is speculation I see as pointless as it will never be brought up.

As for what Oro said: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/292/19/
the fight was a not over Naruto didn't even go 4 tails yet.

panos,greece

03-19-2009, 08:41 PM

@shattered i will answer to you another time being very exhausted to have an argument with you now.
@ozaffer if you are saying that other uchihas after madara followed his path and obtained ms and ems,then you are wrong.as everyone knows ems and even ms is a very powerful doujutsu giving the ability to the user to fight even stronger enemies.also ms and ems grants the user the ability to control the kuybi.so as you understand it is not an everyday doujutsu.concluding if other people after madara obtained ems then they would have been surely mentioned in the manga because they would play huge role in the plot of the manga(what did they do when they obtained such powerful eyes?what happened to them?)so,taking into consideration all the above it is my belief that other ms and ems user existed before madara.something interesting to note here,clans did not exist since the founding of the ninja world.so take that into consideration too.
finally,it seems i have to edit some parts in the theory because it seems their meaning is vague.i think i will also do a time line.

Ozaffer

03-19-2009, 08:56 PM

panos,greece

03-19-2009, 09:04 PM

oz@.now,look.the toad who was 800 years old thought that rikoudo was just a legend.how would a 20-21 years old boy like itachi now details about his ancient ancestor?

Ozaffer

03-19-2009, 09:22 PM

oz@.now,look.the toad who was 800 years old thought that rikoudo was just a legend.how would a 20-21 years old boy like itachi now details about his ancient ancestor?

I get what your saying about the frog is 800 years old and didn't know if Rikoudo was real or not.

But I don't see how that pertains to this subject I am talking about Madara a person Itachi works with told him that he and his brother were the first to gain MS. This part of the Uchiha's history was told to Itachi directly from Madara that's how Itachi knew. Next the part about the Uchiha following in madara's footsteps killing brothers and friends could have been information found in the Uchiha temple thats where Saskue learns about MS, or Itachi could have found that out from Madara himself as well.

You may say Madara could be lying to Itachi that he and his brother weren't the first with MS but you have no proof, Madara had no reason to lie to Itachi, and would it even matter?

panos,greece

03-19-2009, 09:32 PM

I get what your saying about the frog is 800 years old and didn't know if Rikoudo was real or not.

But I don't see how that pertains to this subject I am talking about Madara a person Itachi works with told him that he and his brother were the first to gain MS. This part of the Uchiha's history was told to Itachi directly from Madara that's how Itachi knew. Next the part about the Uchiha following in madara's footsteps killing brothers and friends could have been information found in the Uchiha temple thats where Saskue learns about MS, or Itachi could have found that out from Madara himself as well.

You may say Madara could be lying to Itachi that he and his brother weren't the first with MS but you have no proof, Madara had no reason to lie to Itachi, and would it even matter?

-sighs- it seems i do not explain things very well.ok, then i will answer to you and to shattered tomorrow.but you may want to reread some of my replies.

Ozaffer

03-19-2009, 09:45 PM

-sighs- it seems i do not explain things very well.ok, then i will answer to you and to shattered tomorrow.but you may want to reread some of my replies.

well that's not going to happen.. but I can wait a day for your reply, really I have no clue what your talking about if that didn't answer your debate on the whole MS history being straight out of the manga...

panos,greece

03-21-2009, 01:44 PM

@shattered
Yeah, all the Uchiha here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/) are strange: an X on the chin, a third eye etc. Add to that the demonic entity (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/), and also the gem-like object on Susanoo's forehead (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/04-05/).
Exactly.there are many others also.
On to business:

1) Your explanation for the inheritance of the Rinnegan does not make sense. See, his wife died. But later, every time a Rinnegan user dies, the inheritance is transferred. The jutsu is being utilized after the user's death, which does not make sense. Unless you're going to say that every wife of potential Rinnegan user performed the jutsu, which wouldn't make sense because Nagato's parents were killed, so his mommy never did the jutsu.
what you are saying would have made sense but it is plainly wrong.why? first of all nagato before obtaining rinnegan showed no special talent as a ninja , on the contrarary he seemed weak. but after he obtained rinnegan we learn that by the age of ten he managed to learn and use proficiently all the elements. how is that even possible ,taking into consideration that not even jiraya could help him learn and execute all the elemental jutsus? keep in mind that naruto in order to learn how to use his element he had to go to a same elemental user and ask for tips.not even the legendary,in this field,kakashi could help him for something like this. so it is certain that jiraya did not teach him the usage of all the elements.
also, we see him having much knowledge about rikoudo sennin. how is that possible for a young boy who has not recieved any special lessons? so it is clearly hinted that rikoudo is in someway inside nagato, giving him much information about how to use rinnegan. finally, how could nagato know such a jutsu as using all these bodies? Something else that rikoudo must have taught him. summing up, i believe that the jutsu's goal was to keep alive rikoudo (something like minato) while he is choosing the next user.

Furthermore, is it only inherited by one son? What if that son dies before he has children? In an era of war, that would have happened somewhere along the line in the family considering the 1000s of years....
There is no way this bloodline lasted if it was so fragile because only one person inherited it. You should have said that the Rinnegan-potential is inherited by all descendants.
what you say is true assuming that rikoudo was not immortal.as i say in the theory rikoudo was immortal.by using the word immortal i do not mean invincible but that he could not die by ilness,starvation,and by being very old,he could be defeated and die in a battle but not from factors i mentioned before.so in conclusion he had plenty of time to have a son.

But there is still a problem if all the descendants have the Rinnegan: Why hasn't anyone activated it in the thousands of years? Talent is inherited e.g. 4th/Naruto, so many of Rikoudou's children should have done it. Why only Nagato? You're complicating matters. You should just stick to the manga: Rinnegan is a tool of heaven that appears when needed.
i agree. i nowhere state that each son of rikoudo obtained rinnegan. i agree that Rinnegan is a tool of heaven that appears when needed. and it is now needed because of madara.
2) And yes, a few people have awakened MS, but Madara and Izuna were the first. The ref was given earlier. The other few awakened it after them, during the era of clan wars.
keep in mind that not from the very beggining of the ninja system clans existed.so whta you say about madara is wrong.there could be others like him,but before the uchiha clan was formed.
4) You're saying that Madara obtained his abilities when he left Konoha, way after EMS. That is difficult to believe. I am very certain that Madara's ST-abilities are a product of his sharingan, but I won't press the point. Btw, my theory states that Madara used the Fox to fight Shodai before Konoha was made, which doesn't go with my theory that you quoted.
yes but it combined very well.
5) As Gott said, other KG have nothing to do with the Sage. KG depend on genes, and genetic mutations existed before the Sage. But okay, it's possible that both the byakugan and sharingan came from the Sage, but then one would have expected Nagato to have a byakugan before, am I right?
no,you jump to conclusions more often that orochimaru to bodies.lol. nagato does not have to be a descendant of rikoudo ,after the battle. see my earlier reply as how rikoudo chooses the next user. about kg, i have xpressed my opinion earlier.

I get what your saying about the frog is 800 years old and didn't know if Rikoudo was real or not.
@ozaffer
But I don't see how that pertains to this subject I am talking about Madara a person Itachi works with told him that he and his brother were the first to gain MS. This part of the Uchiha's history was told to Itachi directly from Madara that's how Itachi knew. Next the part about the Uchiha following in madara's footsteps killing brothers and friends could have been information found in the Uchiha temple thats where Saskue learns about MS, or Itachi could have found that out from Madara himself as well.

You may say Madara could be lying to Itachi that he and his brother weren't the first with MS but you have no proof, Madara had no reason to lie to Itachi, and would it even matter
even for madara, knowledge for before than 900 years wouldn't be available.and keep in mind that the uchiha clan did not exist since the ancient past,so no information before the uchiha was formed.

Benzini

03-21-2009, 03:01 PM

what you are saying would have made sense but it is plainly wrong.why? first of all nagato before obtaining rinnegan showed no special talent as a ninja , on the contrarary he seemed weak. but after he obtained rinnegan we learn that by the age of ten he managed to learn and use proficiently all the elements.
There's no proof for this though.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/02/
^^This is the very first time that we see Nagato's eyes in the manga.

So for all we know, he had the Rinnegan the whole time. Actually, I'm pretty sure this is the case, especially since Konan and Yahiko didn't say anything about Nagato suddenly getting a brand new pair of eyes.

So he "showed no special talent" even with the Rinnegan.

Actually, it seems his "special talent" was just hidden; finally revealed when his comrade's life was in danger.

panos,greece

03-21-2009, 03:07 PM

There's no proof for this though.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/02/
^^This is the very first time that we see Nagato's eyes in the manga.

So for all we know, he had the Rinnegan the whole time. Actually, I'm pretty sure this is the case, especially since Konan and Yahiko didn't say anything about Nagato suddenly getting a brand new pair of eyes.

So he "showed no special talent" even with the Rinnegan.

Actually, it seems his "special talent" was just hidden; finally revealed when his comrade's life was in danger.

of course no.the fact that we did not see his eyes does not mean that jiraya didn't either.or are you implying that nagato can see without his eyes?:eek:

senju_king

03-21-2009, 03:19 PM

ShatteredHope

03-21-2009, 03:34 PM

@ Panos

I don't think you've answered my questions. I'll reply with main points, but I can tell you that you're answers do not make sense to me, or are avoiding the question.

1) You're saying that the wife of the Sage did such a jutsu that did exactly what?

Did it pass on the Rinnegan potential from the dead Sage to his son only or does this jutsu propagate the Rinnegan through the generations? If one jutsu performed a thousand years ago is responsible for the transmission of Rinnegan potential, then it does not make sense..

You say Riloudou chooses the user:no,you jump to conclusions more often that orochimaru to bodies.lol. nagato does not have to be a descendant of rikoudo ,after the battle. see my earlier reply as how rikoudo chooses the next user. about kg, i have xpressed my opinion earlier.But then you agree with me and say the Heavens choose:i agree. i nowhere state that each son of rikoudo obtained rinnegan. i agree that Rinnegan is a tool of heaven that appears when needed. and it is now needed because of madara.2) You're theory says Sage died in battle. So, he is dead, like every human. Sage = Nagato = humans. Sage isn't the source of the Rinnegan; he is a host for the Rinnegan, just like Nagato. Thus the source of Rinnegans knowledge in both Sage and Nagato is the Heavens. Nagato has never met the Sage in any way, shape or form, but has knowledge about him from the Rinnegan. That's what I think. I don't understand your point of view.

3) You're assuming Madara did not have the first MS, and that he only controlled the Fox after the VotE, which is wrong, because he has been shown controlling the Fox at the VotE. Madara did not learn to control Fox after he left Konoha; he could do it from before that.

There might be some elements of the story that may come true, but on the whole, I do not think so.

Benzini

03-21-2009, 03:45 PM

of course no.the fact that we did not see his eyes does not mean that jiraya didn't either.or are you implying that nagato can see without his eyes?:eek:
No I'm saying Nagato always had the Rinnegan, but his eyes were simply covered.

Here are images of Nagato:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/12/ (BOTTOM RIGHT)
^^This is how Nagato always was

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/13/
^^Eyes covered by his hair.

No one could see Nagato's eyes. And it wasn't just drawn by Kishi like that to make him look emo.

Chances are Nagato and his parents didn't want people to see his eyes. He wore his hair like that because of his eyes.

Even after Jiraiya see's his Rinnegan.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/09/
^^His eyes are covered by his hair again.

----
So chances are Nagato was born with his Rinnegan, it didn't awaken that day.

panos,greece

03-21-2009, 03:51 PM

1) You're saying that the wife of the Sage did such a jutsu that did exactly what?

Did it pass on the Rinnegan potential from the dead Sage to his son only or does this jutsu propagate the Rinnegan through the generations? If one jutsu performed a thousand years ago is responsible for the transmission of Rinnegan potential, then it does not make sense..
the jutsu that was casted allowed the consciousness of rikoudo remain alive.have you seen harry potter?the first film?if you have,then rikoudo was like voldemort.
You say Riloudou chooses the user:But then you agree with me and say the Heavens choose:2) You're theory says Sage died in battle. So, he is dead, like every human. Sage = Nagato = humans. Sage isn't the source of the Rinnegan; he is a host for the Rinnegan, just like Nagato. Thus the source of Rinnegans knowledge in both Sage and Nagato is the Heavens. Nagato has never met the Sage in any way, shape or form, but has knowledge about him from the Rinnegan. That's what I think. I don't understand your point of view.
bodily he is dead,but his consciousness is alive wandering to find a new potential user.he found nagato,entered in him and gave him gradually information about his past etc.according to hinduism brahma does not take part in human affairs so much,so rikoudo is like a demi god in earth,who has the wisdom to choose a new user. i do not believe what you are saying is true, because if i understand well then does that mean that the eyes have their own consciousness?
3) You're assuming Madara did not have the first MS, and that he only controlled the Fox after the VotE, which is wrong, because he has been shown controlling the Fox at the VotE. Madara did not learn to control Fox after he left Konoha; he could do it from before that.
and you are assuming that uchiha clan existed since ancient times, which is plain wrong.i say that madara had the first ms since the uchiha clan existed.do you have proof that madara controlled kuybi before he left konoha?

There might be some elements of the story that may come true, but on the whole, I do not think so

hehe,show me a theory that was completely based on religion and imagination-creativity of the poster and was completely true:thumbup:

@benzini,so you are saying that he had his hair like that all the time?and you are saying that jiraya did not wonder why he didnt show his eyes?

Benzini

03-21-2009, 04:00 PM

@benzini,so you are saying that he had his hair like that all the time?and you are saying that jiraya did not wonder why he didnt show his eyes?
Yeah, basically.

Jiraiya shouldn't have been suspicious of anything. He probably thought to himself, "Oh just another emo kid." Nagato covering his eyes wasn't a big deal.

But we know that Nagato keep his eyes covered all the time because here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/09/) his eyes were covered again, even after his Rinnegan was revealed.

The only time his eyes were revealed was when he was fighting:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/02/
^^First time

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/12/
^^Second time

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/17/
^^Today

panos,greece

03-21-2009, 04:08 PM

Yeah, basically.

Jiraiya shouldn't have been suspicious of anything. He probably thought to himself, "Oh just another emo kid." Nagato covering his eyes wasn't a big deal.

But we know that Nagato keep his eyes covered all the time because here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/09/) his eyes were covered again, even after his Rinnegan was revealed.

The only time his eyes were revealed was when he was fighting:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/02/
^^First time

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/12/
^^Second time

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/17/
^^Today

i do not believe what you are saying though i cannot prove you wrong,as you cannot prove me wrong.

Benzini

03-21-2009, 04:16 PM

Well there's never 100% proof in the manga for anything until it's revealed as canon fact.

But all evidence points to Nagato having the Rinnegan before Jiraya discovered it.

1. His hair being in a style specifically meant to cover his eyes.
2. Konan and Yahiko not commenting on his Rinnegan, proving that they had seen his eyes before.
3. Nagato not asking about his eyes or showing shock after Jiraiya noticed them, proving he knew he had it.
4. His eyes still being hidden even after his Rinnegan was revealed.

Dude was born with the Rinnegan...

I'll leave it at that if you won't believe. But besides random speculation, there's nothing to even hint that it only awakened that day.

HollowKill

03-21-2009, 04:33 PM

Panos, gotta hand it to you for your originality.

You missed this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/). Talking about the unknown Uchiha we see in the back with the Third Eye. (It helps with your theory with Sharingan being associated with god Shiva. )

I second that, good on ya Panos for pointing out the third eye but the X on chin... the only X I see is a scar on the left side of a face but the other guys wow... I never really looked at them until now. As for the third eye; "Third eye: Shiva is often depicted with a third eye, with which he burned Desire (Kāma) to ashes" - Wikipedia

I assume it's there for genjutsu as some Uchiha made a name for themselves being skilled in using it and if not genjutsu well the Uchiha where famous for using Fire style that's a connection as well. Also, Wikipedia goes on to say,

"Third eye: Shiva is often depicted with a third eye, with which he burned Desire (Kāma) to ashes. There has been controversy regarding the original meaning of Shiva's name Tryambakam (Sanskrit: त्र्यम्बकम्), which occurs in many scriptural sources. In classical Sanskrit, the word ambaka denotes "an eye", and in the Mahabharata, Shiva is depicted as three-eyed, so this name is sometimes translated as "having three eyes". However, in Vedic Sanskrit, the word ambā or ambikā means "mother", and this early meaning of the word is the basis for the translation "having three mothers" that was used by Max Müller and Arthur Macdonell. Since no story is known in which Shiva had three mothers. Washburn Hopkins suggested that the name refers not to three mothers, but to three mother-goddesses who are collectively called the Ambikās. Other related translations have been "having three wives or sisters" or were based on the idea that the name actually refers to the oblations given to Rudra, which according to some traditions were shared with the goddess Ambikā. - Wikipedia

So, Shiva three eyes may have been to having three mothers which is similar to Uchiha having, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susanoo. Hindu's three gods are refered to as the, "Great Trinity"; creator, preserver and destroyer. Looking at the MS, Tsukuyomi could be the creator being that it's a space/time style genjutsu, Amaterasu the destroyer for it's black flame, and Susanoo the preserver for protecting the user from harm.

Then with Pain, he called his bodies "The six paths of Pain".

There are many deities in Hinduism. At the top are the trimurti: Shiva (the destroyer), Vishnu (the protector), and Brahma (the creator), and their wives (goddesses in their own right): Shakti (also known as Paarvathi, Ambicaa) the goddess of courage and power, Lakshmi the goddess of all forms of wealth, and Saraswati the goddess of learning. - Wikipedia

So in the Hindu culture they have their own six paths.

destroyer
protector
creator
courage and power
wealth
learning

My guess, if you where to link them together with the six bodies would be something like this,

destroyer = Deva
protector = Preta
creator = Woeful
courage and power = Asura
wealth = Animal
learning = Human

I know Kishi has tied together Chinese and Japanese mythology so it wouldn't suprise me if he also made other religion mythology tie in as well.

panos,greece

03-21-2009, 04:34 PM

gilgy

03-21-2009, 04:40 PM

panos,greece

03-21-2009, 04:45 PM

Maybe, just maybe, everyone is overreacting to Nagato's choice of hairstyle. It's just the mangaka's way of keeping it a mystery until he decides to unshroud it. So, it ain't really a subjective proof of whether he had Rinnegan since birth or not.

it plays a huge role in the theory though.but a theory being a theory we can all speculate.

Benzini

03-21-2009, 04:59 PM

so because you did that i will point out why he did not have it since he was born:
1 i cannot undertand how he could see.
2 jiraya did not say anything loudly about nagato's eyes.
3 there is no way jiraya did not wonder.
4 there is no way jiraya did not ask.
5 there is no way that nagato found a good excuse for his hair to make jiraya stop wondering.
1. His eyes were covered and he could still see so don't worry about it. It's a manga.
2. Because he knew Nagato already knew that his eyes were different. Are you trying to say that Jiraiya discovered that Nagato had the Rinnegan and he decided to keep it from him? This is more evidence to prove that Nagato knew of his eyes before that day.
3,4,5. Come on now. Why not just make every word that you type a separate point. :rolleyes: I already addressed this.

6 what does the databook say?

Dude was born without the Rinnegan...
Can you prove that the databook says this?

If you can I'll yield.

it plays a huge role in the theory though.
This is probably why you don't want to believe ;)

But isn't it better to figure out what's right then to believe what's wrong?

----
Btw, you didn't address any of the glitches that I pointed out above.

And they're pretty big glitches. Unless you want to just blame it on plot-holes.

Ozaffer

03-21-2009, 05:31 PM

@shattered

@ozaffer

But I don't see how that pertains to this subject I am talking about Madara a person Itachi works with told him that he and his brother were the first to gain MS. This part of the Uchiha's history was told to Itachi directly from Madara that's how Itachi knew. Next the part about the Uchiha following in madara's footsteps killing brothers and friends could have been information found in the Uchiha temple thats where Saskue learns about MS, or Itachi could have found that out from Madara himself as well.

even for madara, knowledge for before than 900 years wouldn't be available.and keep in mind that the uchiha clan did not exist since the ancient past,so no information before the uchiha was formed.

So the Manga has told us that Madara and his brother were the first Uchiha to gain MS. You may say Madara could be lying to Itachi that he and his brother weren't the first with MS but you have no proof, Madara had no reason to lie to Itachi, and would it even matter in the idea the Manga wont contradict itself none of your speculation would be brought up for more back story on the sharingan.

Anyway we know that the Uchiha clan recorded the history of the MS after Madara why wouldn't they have anything about previous MS users if they existed?

As for how Nagato gained the Ranningan it could have happened after he blacked out but I think it's more probable that he had the Ranningan sense birth. He wasn't a Master of all elements at the age of 10 it was legend the user could use all elements we are yet to see that. His Hair was just long it's not impossible to see out of hair but from a distance it's hard to see threw hair, that explains why J-man couldn't see his eyes right away. It wasn't a mistake Kishi made his hair like that not only is it for surprising the readers but it was Nagato's way to hide his eyes from other Ninja what if someone like Oro had seen his eyes?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/05/ : note the Ranningan has been reviled and his eyes are hidden once again.

Gottheim

03-21-2009, 05:40 PM

To add further support to Benzini's demonstration:

The DB says Nagato awakened to Rinnegan. Which means it activated for the first time. We know from the Hyuuga clan that the eyes don't have to look anything normal prior to their activation. In addition, when Rinnegan activates, we don't go all the way from a normal eye to the weird chameleon-like appearance. The eyes themselves (www.onemanga.com/Naruto/419/01/) don't change. The pupils merely expand (www.onemanga.com/Naruto/419/02/), and that's about it. See, we can safely assume Nagato's eyes already looked like Shiho-chan's bottle-end (the bottom end of a bottle. The part with a concentric circles pattern. How's that called?:confused:) spectacles. Most likely, nothing else happened aside from the small change I pointed out.

EDIT: Okay, scratch the "awakening" part. If you wanna be specific, the DB says "[Nagato] was gifted with a pair of wondrous eyes." Which can technically be interpreted as Nagato's eyes being normal prior to that. But that'd be pushing it, in a direction the manga doesn't seem to be taking. And as Benzini mentioned, Nagato's eyes were invisible to Jiraiya and us until Rinnegan's activation, which makes it much more likely that they were already funny-looking. What would be the point of hiding them otherwise?

doomguy

03-21-2009, 07:54 PM

panos,greece

03-21-2009, 08:53 PM

Benzini1. His eyes were covered and he could still see so don't worry about it. It's a manga.
2. Because he knew Nagato already knew that his eyes were different. Are you trying to say that Jiraiya discovered that Nagato had the Rinnegan and he decided to keep it from him? This is more evidence to prove that Nagato knew of his eyes before that day.
3,4,5. Come on now. Why not just make every word that you type a separate point. :rolleyes: I already addressed this.

Can you prove that the databook says this?

If you can I'll yield.

This is probably why you don't want to believe ;)

But isn't it better to figure out what's right then to believe what's wrong?

----
Btw, you didn't address any of the glitches that I pointed out above.

And they're pretty big glitches. Unless you want to just blame it on plot-holes.
let's agree to disagree.you cannot convince me cause it is too farfetched to believe that jiraya never wondered why he did not show his hair.and when i said it had a big significance in the theory i did not mean that there will be a problem.on the contrary i do not have any problem one way or another.
OzafferSo the Manga has told us that Madara and his brother were the first Uchiha to gain MS. You may say Madara could be lying to Itachi that he and his brother weren't the first with MS but you have no proof, Madara had no reason to lie to Itachi, and would it even matter in the idea the Manga wont contradict itself none of your speculation would be brought up for more back story on the sharingan.

Anyway we know that the Uchiha clan recorded the history of the MS after Madara why wouldn't they have anything about previous MS users if they existed?

As for how Nagato gained the Ranningan it could have happened after he blacked out but I think it's more probable that he had the Ranningan sense birth. He wasn't a Master of all elements at the age of 10 it was legend the user could use all elements we are yet to see that. His Hair was just long it's not impossible to see out of hair but from a distance it's hard to see threw hair, that explains why J-man couldn't see his eyes right away. It wasn't a mistake Kishi made his hair like that not only is it for surprising the readers but it was Nagato's way to hide his eyes from other Ninja what if someone like Oro had seen his eyes?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/05/ : note the Ranningan has been reviled and his eyes are hidden once again
i stop arguing with you,you are repeating yourself while refusing to read my posts.this is the last time.how is it even possible to have information about people who may have obtained ms but they are scattered throughout the world. THE UCHIHA CLAN DID NOT EXIST FROM ANCIENT TIMES.so it is impossible even for the grandfather of madara to have known such details.

To add further support to Benzini's demonstration:

The DB says Nagato awakened to Rinnegan. Which means it activated for the first time. We know from the Hyuuga clan that the eyes don't have to look anything normal prior to their activation. In addition, when Rinnegan activates, we don't go all the way from a normal eye to the weird chameleon-like appearance. The eyes themselves (www.onemanga.com/Naruto/419/01/) don't change. The pupils merely expand (www.onemanga.com/Naruto/419/02/), and that's about it. See, we can safely assume Nagato's eyes already looked like Shiho-chan's bottle-end (the bottom end of a bottle. The part with a concentric circles pattern. How's that called?:confused:) spectacles. Most likely, nothing else happened aside from the small change I pointed out.

EDIT: Okay, scratch the "awakening" part. If you wanna be specific, the DB says "[Nagato] was gifted with a pair of wondrous eyes." Which can technically be interpreted as Nagato's eyes being normal prior to that. But that'd be pushing it, in a direction the manga doesn't seem to be taking. And as Benzini mentioned, Nagato's eyes were invisible to Jiraiya and us until Rinnegan's activation, which makes it much more likely that they were already funny-looking. What would be the point of hiding them otherwise
ask an emo,to answer you.jocking.even db agrees with what i say.so sorry pals, but you cannot disagree with db because you do-dont like sth.

ShatteredHope

03-21-2009, 09:15 PM

@ Gott and Benz

What's going on here? When you guys team up, I feel compelled to help the other guy cuz it's just unfair :P
Nagato's eyes were invisible to Jiraiya and us until Rinnegan's activation, which makes it much more likely that they were already funny-looking. What would be the point of hiding them otherwise?I always felt that the hair covering the eyes was for Nagato's reserved and shy image. It helped to create that innocent boy image, at least imo. Btw, the reason Itachi had his sharingan activated needlessly was also (imo) for a similar reason; to create the image befitting of an invincible, godly ninja who took out the strongest clan by himself (at the time we didn't know).
We know from the Hyuuga clan that the eyes don't have to look anything normal prior to their activation. In addition, when Rinnegan activates, we don't go all the way from a normal eye to the weird chameleon-like appearance. The eyes themselves don't change. The pupils merely expand, and that's about it. See, we can safely assume Nagato's eyes already looked like Shiho-chan's bottle-end (the bottom end of a bottle. The part with a concentric circles pattern. How's that called?) spectacles. Most likely, nothing else happened aside from the small change I pointed out.Not necessarily. Just as the byakugan eyes don't look different when activated, the sharingan eyes do. And even when activated, the sharingan eyes rotate sometimes IIRC, don't they? We could say the same thing about Rinnegan; it was activated, but the jutsu used (some special vision/sensing jutsu) caused the pupils to oscillate/expand.2. Konan and Yahiko not commenting on his Rinnegan, proving that they had seen his eyes before.
3. Nagato not asking about his eyes or showing shock after Jiraiya noticed them, proving he knew he had it.Kishi doesn't need to waste manga time by having everyone comment on the Rinnegan. Jiraiya did it, but we don't need Jiraiya/Yahiko/Konan repeat the info for us.....besides, the fact that we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm sure Jiraiya met Minato more than just that one time we've seen :P

Plus, Nagato knows exactly what he's got; god's eyes. I believe the Rinnegan gives knowledge to its user (read earlier post in this thread). Nagato started 'knowing stuff' with time after it activated.

And read Gott's post for more on the activation. Plus, the other 2 eye techniques need to be activated, shouldn't the Rinnegan, another eye technique need to be activated too? And sharingan activates and even powers up with traumatic esperiences, isn't that what happened with the Rinnegan? If you still don't agree, can you offer an explanation for what really happened during the blackout if it wasn't the Rinnegan's activation?
Nagato not asking about his eyes or showing shock after Jiraiya noticed them, proving he knew he had it.Did Jiraiya tell him about the moon too? Jiraiya didn';t need to tell him, see earlier post for the 'knowledge' theory.Sorry to repeat myself, too lazy to organize the post.

Guys, we'll leave it at this: we don't know what Nagato's eyes looked like prior to activation. Honestly, I don't think we'll find out.

Panos, you'll get your response later.

panos,greece

03-21-2009, 09:22 PM

thanks shattered, too dificult to argue with benzini,gott,ozzafer,and you at the same time.

MyTwistedLight

03-22-2009, 03:16 AM

thanks shattered, too dificult to argue with benzini,gott,ozzafer,and you at the same time.

Difficult is an understatement... it's near impossible to win.

Shika2.0

03-22-2009, 03:41 AM

@panos,greece loved the theory, was a good read. Just wondering if you had any theories as to how Naruto fits into everything in regards to the whole hinduisim and buddist thing. Also i had a though do you think its possible that the rinnegan could be given to Naruto,( The scenario am forseing is one where Naruto answers Pain question and goes on to beat him and change him with "his special power" and an eye plucking transfer is done.???????

Ozaffer

03-22-2009, 04:33 AM

i stop arguing with you,you are repeating yourself while refusing to read my posts.this is the last time.how is it even possible to have information about people who may have obtained ms but they are scattered throughout the world. THE UCHIHA CLAN DID NOT EXIST FROM ANCIENT TIMES.so it is impossible even for the grandfather of madara to have known such details.

oki but for my last comment I read all of your post and you know as well as I do how hard reading one of your post can be. You are trying to say that because there where Uchiha before Madara for years and years that there could have been other MS users.

I am saying nothing in the Manga points to this so while in theory you could be right about that in actuality the Manga doesn't go by what if's it goes by what was stated. And it was stated that Madara and his brother where the first with MS nothing points to this as a maybe. So even if the very first Uchiha where bestood apon with a gift greater then EMS it wouldn't matter, the manga states Madara and his brother where the first to achieve MS and that's that.

panos,greece

03-22-2009, 09:54 AM

@shika2.0 yes i have a theory about naruto getting rinnegan but i do not even dare to post it, because i know how people will react.though i am preparing a theory about sasuke,which will explain why he is so important and will fit perfectly with the current theory.
@ozaffer.i know that english is my second language and that i write quickly but that does not excuse your poor understanding. so i will repeat myself. yes, madara and izuna were the first with ms but this does not exclude the possiblity of other ms and ems in the past. also how did madara know that if he took his brother eyes, he would be well again? so,some legends from the past, like rikoudo creating the moon, must have been about a man who obtained new more powerful eyes than normal sharingan.

Aphrodisiac

03-22-2009, 01:20 PM

Naruto getting Rinnengan..........Nah wud u like to see a malnutritioned Naruto looking like a passed out hippy pierced everywhere u cud think . Just imaging Naruto in Nagatos state gives me jitters n add Sakura as his attendant . Kakashi; jiraiya n just 4 more ninjas from the handful of ninja killed by that moron Pein and loo u hav the six paths of Pain. Actually now that I look at it; doesn't sound bad......lol

panos,greece

03-22-2009, 01:49 PM

aphro@ lol.the fact that you obtain rinnegan does not equate to being crippled.

Ozaffer

03-22-2009, 04:24 PM

@ozaffer.i know that english is my second language and that i write quickly but that does not excuse your poor understanding. so i will repeat myself. yes, madara and izuna were the first with ms but this does not exclude the possiblity of other ms and ems in the past. also how did madara know that if he took his brother eyes, he would be well again? so,some legends from the past, like rikoudo creating the moon, must have been about a man who obtained new more powerful eyes than normal sharingan.

How do I have poor understanding? I said you were talking about possible MS users before Madara I know your story and I know your belief on the matter. Perhaps you are right, I never said that was impossible, just right now nothing in the Manga points to that being the truth, your history of the Sharingan is 100% speculation based off mythology.

While the Manga itself says that Madara and his Brother were the first to gain MS, that Madara was blind and desperate causing him reach out for a "new light" and take his brothers eye's. Thats what the manga says so right now we know that as the truth, what you are saying is speculation that your trying to pass off as truth.

panos,greece

03-22-2009, 09:17 PM

How do I have poor understanding? I said you were talking about possible MS users before Madara I know your story and I know your belief on the matter. Perhaps you are right, I never said that was impossible, just right now nothing in the Manga points to that being the truth, your history of the Sharingan is 100% speculation based off mythology.

While the Manga itself says that Madara and his Brother were the first to gain MS, that Madara was blind and desperate causing him reach out for a "new light" and take his brothers eye's. Thats what the manga says so right now we know that as the truth, what you are saying is speculation that your trying to pass off as truth.
you still have not answered my question.you say that Madara was blind and desperate causing him reach out for a "new light".but why did he took his brothers eyes.and not from another useless uchiha member?

Ozaffer

03-22-2009, 09:25 PM

you still have not answered my question.you say that Madara was blind and desperate causing him reach out for a "new light".but why did he took his brothers eyes.and not from another useless uchiha member?

Well according to Madara his brother offered his eyes to him but it could have been because he wanted his MS idk, but it wasn't said that he knew what would happen it said he uncovered the final secret to the sharingan EMS. If he did know what would happen and there was a legend of MS or EMS he knew about then he obviously wouldn't have been said to be the first Uchiha with MS.

panos,greece

03-22-2009, 09:50 PM

Well according to Madara his brother offered his eyes to him but it could have been because he wanted his MS idk, but it wasn't said that he knew what would happen it said he uncovered the final secret to the sharingan EMS. If he did know what would happen and there was a legend of MS or EMS he knew about then he obviously wouldn't have been said to be the first Uchiha with MS.

and how did he uncover the final secret?no information,no legend nothing to bebased on and still he found the final secret, completely by chance.now if that is not farfetched what is it?

Ozaffer

03-22-2009, 10:06 PM

and how did he uncover the final secret?no information,no legend nothing to bebased on and still he found the final secret, completely by chance.now if that is not farfetched what is it?

Trying not to get annoyed repeating myself because I know english isn't your first language but try and understand everything I am saying. He uncovers the final secret by mistake in a desperate attempt to get his sight back he took his brothers eyes as Itachi says. They didn't know it would awaken EMS he was just hoping to be able to see and fight again so he would be able to lead the Uchiha in their time of war. But in doing so he awoke EMS unlocking the final secret to the Sharingan.

senju_king

03-22-2009, 10:57 PM

and how did he uncover the final secret?no information,no legend nothing to bebased on and still he found the final secret, completely by chance.now if that is not farfetched what is it?

I think Ozaffer is right about this. (But I don't know what it's got to do with your theory though)

Even though both brothers unlocked the MS, Madara was the who became the leader (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/06/)of Uchiha clan, had more responsibility in the wars. He would then use more techniques than Izuna and he noticed he was losing sight faster (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/07/). He did everything to free himself from the darkness… but his efforts were all in vain. Eventually Izuna (maybe Madara asked for it), seeing the clan fall to the Senjus, agreed and offered up his own eyes (http://onemanga.com/Naruto/399/04/)to relieve Madara of the blindness. With that light returned to Madara’s world and darkess never came again (link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/08/)). “A permanent mangekyou sharingan… By changing hosts, the younger brother’s eyes found an inextinquishable light.” (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/)

It sounds more like that the EMS was found accidently by giving/taking the eyes from Izuna. Madara (or Izuna) didn't know it would cure blindness forever. It was something that Madara and Izuna did in desperate time - and it ended up very beneficial to Madara. It’s the basis for why Itachi says he wants the eyes (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/13/)- no mention of it being noted in a book/ tablets. And to find this was the reason that so much members of the Uchiha clan was sacrificed (link 1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/), link 2 (http://onemanga.com/Naruto/399/03/)). It was like more of an experimentation done by the Uchiha clan to find a permanent solution to blindness. Madara was the first to find the final secret (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/17/), thanks to his brother. From then for decades, to achieve MS and EMS (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/13/), killing happened between friends and brothers in the Uchiha clan.

Sasuke read the tablets in the secret room (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/16/)but there was no mention of it in it because 1) he still didn't know about Madara's history 2) He had no idea for the requirements for EMS. It's likely the tablets contained the requirements for the normal MS and the secrets to control Kyubi. So, it's only possible that this secret was revealed at sometime by Madara to Itachi - whether previous to or after massacre - not sure. If after massacre, it confirms (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/10/)why Itachi spared his brother - out of love, not for the EMS. If before, it still doesn't make a difference.

panos,greece

03-23-2009, 11:21 AM

Gottheim

03-23-2009, 11:34 AM

@ Gott and Benz

What's going on here? When you guys team up, I feel compelled to help the other guy cuz it's just unfair :PI always felt that the hair covering the eyes was for Nagato's reserved and shy image. It helped to create that innocent boy image, at least imo. Btw, the reason Itachi had his sharingan activated needlessly was also (imo) for a similar reason; to create the image befitting of an invincible, godly ninja who took out the strongest clan by himself (at the time we didn't know).LOL, it's not like we've been ganging up on him or something! I provided panos with a backup explanation for all ninjas being Rikudou's descendants. And the loophole (yeah, panos, loophole=/=confirmation:P) he's currently exploiting in the databook text was pointed out by me!:D

And if Hinata is not proof that Kishi has other means than emo hair to convey a character's sense of shyness, I don't know what is!

Plus, Nagato knows exactly what he's got; god's eyes. I believe the Rinnegan gives knowledge to its user (read earlier post in this thread). Nagato started 'knowing stuff' with time after it activated.... or that he simply asked around for info. Rikudou Sennin was a legend. Which means anyone with an education would have heard the name in passing, at least. And just to conter the impending Chibaku Tensei argument: we know Rikudou might have created the moon. We have know idea if he actually did it, and even less if he resorted to Chibaku Tensei. It could have been anything else, for all we know.

Plus, the other 2 eye techniques need to be activated, shouldn't the Rinnegan, another eye technique need to be activated too? And sharingan activates and even powers up with traumatic esperiences, isn't that what happened with the Rinnegan?Byakugan doeesn't seem to work that way. No trauma needed, apparently.

@ Guys, we'll leave it at this: we don't know what Nagato's eyes looked like prior to activation. Honestly, I don't think we'll find out.Yeah, I think you're right. It's probably not gonna matter much, now. The fight will end, and focus will switch back to Madara and/or Kabuchimaru.

so you are both saying that madara took the eyes of his brother hoping that he could get new powers and his eyes would be cured,right?no only that but you also say that he specifically chose his brother to do so and not a useless uchiha member who would have no significance in the history,right?now my theory is nothing compared to this statement,in terms of speculation.
so madara hoping that if he took his brothers eyes he would cure his blindness, means that he also knew medical ninjutsu in order to transfer his eyes and make them function once again.lol
and finally izuna didnt give his eyes voluntarily to madara,but madara by force took them..I don't think they meant it like this. Madara was desperate, and he merely resorted to a desperate measure to extend his power and gain temporary reprieve from the blindness. As far as he knew, he'd still have lost his eyesight eventually, once his bro's eyes were used up too. EMS was an unexpected development.

jomegar

03-23-2009, 01:05 PM

you know wonderful as all the theory's people make are, you still got to translate it back to naruto world talk.
such as no goddess giving out freebies, and that all powerful jutsu come at a price, and that the 3 eyes are supposed to be linked by ancestry so no magical eye giving, etc. etc.

panos,greece

03-23-2009, 01:13 PM

@jomegar,really now lol!!!you seem to ignore many things...anyway,go to the conversation between me and shattered and there is your answer...

My December

03-23-2009, 02:32 PM

so you are both saying that madara took the eyes of his brother hoping that he could get new powers and his eyes would be cured,right?no only that but you also say that he specifically chose his brother to do so and not a useless uchiha member who would have no significance in the history,right?now my theory is nothing compared to this statement,in terms of speculation.
so madara hoping that if he took his brothers eyes he would cure his blindness, means that he also knew medical ninjutsu in order to transfer his eyes and make them function once again.lol
and finally izuna didnt give his eyes voluntarily to madara,but madara by force took them..
This is my side of the story, although it is something obvious. I'm nothing but obvious in here. But since everyone been doing theories, and speculations, we need someone to mention the obvious to keep things sane in this forum D;

As Itachi mentioned here:
http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000386/05.jpg
The Uchiha clan acknowledge those 2 brother to be gifted. Meaning to that that both of them are better than the rest.
At the next page:
http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000386/06.jpg
Both of them awaken the Mangekyou, and with that.. they took control of the Uchiha.
Meaning both of them were among the very very few Uchihas that were able to awaken the Mangekyou. So when Madara wanted to replace his eyes, probably he couldn't find any "useless Uchiha member with a Mangekyou" to replace his. Why must someone with Mangekyou? Why not just normal Sharingan? Well if it took you years to awaken the Mangekyou, you wouldn't want to replace it with a normal Sharingan would you?
So probably his option is only left with his brother.

And it's not like Madara was hoping to get "new powers" before he took his brother's eyes. It probably more like his brother's eyes are in better condition than his', so he took the eyes to able to see well again.
http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000386/07.jpg
It seems that Madara was the one who notice the MS' problem first. So his action is just an effort to able to see again. Not that he expected to gain new powers. Probably he doesn't even see it coming.
Whether or not Izuna gave the eye, or Madara forcefully took it.... I don't know.

So like Gottheim said, the EMS was an unexpected development.

panos,greece

03-23-2009, 04:29 PM

This is my side of the story, although it is something obvious. I'm nothing but obvious in here. But since everyone been doing theories, and speculations, we need someone to mention the obvious to keep things sane in this forum D;

As Itachi mentioned here:
http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000386/05.jpg
The Uchiha clan acknowledge those 2 brother to be gifted. Meaning to that that both of them are better than the rest.
At the next page:
http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000386/06.jpg
Both of them awaken the Mangekyou, and with that.. they took control of the Uchiha.
Meaning both of them were among the very very few Uchihas that were able to awaken the Mangekyou. So when Madara wanted to replace his eyes, probably he couldn't find any "useless Uchiha member with a Mangekyou" to replace his. Why must someone with Mangekyou? Why not just normal Sharingan? Well if it took you years to awaken the Mangekyou, you wouldn't want to replace it with a normal Sharingan would you?
So probably his option is only left with his brother.

And it's not like Madara was hoping to get "new powers" before he took his brother's eyes. It probably more like his brother's eyes are in better condition than his', so he took the eyes to able to see well again.
http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000386/07.jpg
It seems that Madara was the one who notice the MS' problem first. So his action is just an effort to able to see again. Not that he expected to gain new powers. Probably he doesn't even see it coming.
Whether or not Izuna gave the eye, or Madara forcefully took it.... I don't know.

So like Gottheim said, the EMS was an unexpected development.

-sigh-first of all madara took his brothers by force.secondly,because you also like to state the obvious, show me one page that indicates the hatred of madara towards his brother , izuna.now, taking into consideration these facts plus the fact that madara must have panicked when he started losing his eyesight ,the logical assumption is that in that state, he didnt really care if he would have the same powers as before, but he only wanted his eyes cured. so again after taking into consideration all the above facts we can safely assume that he could have taken the eyes from another uchiha member and then level up them to mangekuy.

Gottheim

03-23-2009, 04:52 PM

first of all madara took his brothers by force.And you know that how? We currently have two conflicting, and more importantly unconfirmed versions of how it happened.

so again after taking into consideration all the above facts we can safely assume that he could have taken the eyes from another uchiha member and then level up them to mangekuy.There's a puny little problem with that. Izuna and Madara were the first and only possessors of MS. The manual for it hadn't been written yet. How would Madara know of the possibility of implanting someone's normal sharingan and upgrading it? The only such case we have is that of Kakashi with Obito's eye, nearly a century later!

Madara didn't just want to keep his eyesight. Any sharingan would have sufficed for that. He had to keep up his power level as well, which means he couldn't afford anything short of Mangekyou. So his own eyes becoming useless+not knowing an implanted eye could be improved all the way up to MS+having only one spare MS available=eyeless Izuna and an unforeseen and unexpected bonus for Madara.

panos,greece

03-23-2009, 05:03 PM

And you know that how? We currently have two conflicting, and more importantly unconfirmed versions of how it happened.
obviously madara was lying to sasuke. proof?he said that kuybi attacked on its own konoha, which is lie as told by minato and even jiraya...the reason he lied to sasuke was to get him with his side as shown in a page i dont remember.
There's a puny little problem with that. Izuna and Madara were the first and only possessors of MS. The manual for it hadn't been written yet. How would Madara know of the possibility of implanting someone's normal sharingan and upgrading it? The only such case we have is that of Kakashi with Obito's eye, nearly a century later!

Madara didn't just want to keep his eyesight. Any sharingan would have sufficed for that. He had to keep up his power level as well, which means he couldn't afford anything short of Mangekyou. So his own eyes becoming useless+not knowing an implanted eye could be improved all the way up to MS+having only one spare MS available=eyeless Izuna and an unforeseen and unexpected bonus for Madara.

wrong,totally wrong.in the state he was, he didnt really care if the powers of sharingan remain the same but he wanted to cure his eyes. nevertheless madara could excell with or without sharingan...

Ozaffer

03-23-2009, 05:18 PM

obviously madara was lying to sasuke. proof?he said that kuybi attacked on its own konoha, which is lie as told by minato and even jiraya...the reason he lied to sasuke was to get him with his side as shown in a page i dont remember.

Theres things called half truths he could have been lying about one subject and telling the truth about another. Itachi could have said that "he stole his brothers eyes" because he wanted Saskue to hate him we just don't know the details for sure yet. In either case it didn't say Madara and his brother learned about the great secret Uchiha power from their history it says they found out by mistake.

now I think everyone else see's what I was dealing with trying to argue this to you. Where it seems obvious by the mangas story what happened you completely refuse any type of argument on this subject.

wrong,totally wrong.in the state he was, he didnt really care if the powers of sharingan remain the same but he wanted to cure his eyes. nevertheless madara could excell with or without sharingan...

Unknown more then likely Madara wanted MS back because it was the skill that gave him the ability to lead the Uchiha. Next we still don't know if his brother offered his eyes or if they were stolen from him. If they were stolen Izuna must have been a shitty weak MS user to sit there and let his eyes get stolen by a blind man. So either Madara was given his brothers eyes, or Madara snatched them out of his eye sockets desperate, quickly, and unexpected when Izuna was an easy target caring for him.

panos,greece

03-23-2009, 05:29 PM

Theres things called half truths he could have been lying about one subject and telling the truth about another. Itachi could have said that "he stole his brothers eyes" because he wanted Saskue to hate him we just don't know the details for sure yet. In either case it didn't say Madara and his brother learned about the great secret Uchiha power from their history it says they found out by mistake.
and in what chapter does it say, 'he found the secret by chance'?
now I think everyone else see's what I was dealing with trying to argue this to you. Where it seems obvious by the mangas story what happened you completely refuse any type of argument on this subject.
now now, do not make assumptions of yours and everyone else that agree with you, valid.

Unknown more then likely Madara wanted MS back because it was the skill that gave him the ability to lead the Uchiha.

a tool does not make a ninja excell. it is the powers of him that make him excell.still, it is beyond my imagination how an almost blind madara managed too keep calm, dont panic and not only want his eyes cured but his powers also...
Next we still don't know if his brother offered his eyes or if they were stolen from him. If they were stolen Izuna must have been a shitty weak MS user to sit there and let his eyes get stolen by a blind man. So either Madara was given his brothers eyes, or Madara snatched them out of his eye sockets desperate, quickly, and unexpected when Izuna was an easy target caring for him.irrelevant,but whatever...

Gottheim

03-23-2009, 05:32 PM

obviously madara was lying to sasuke. proof?he said that kuybi attacked on its own konoha, which is lie as told by minato and even jiraya...the reason he lied to sasuke was to get him with his side as shown in a page i dont remember.Just because he lied about one thing doesn't automatically mean everything else he said isn't true. You can suspect he's lying about the rest as well, but it'd be no more than that: suspicion and speculation, and that's about it. Plus in fact, the best lies are often those that stick closest to the truth...

he didnt really care if the powers of sharingan remain the same but he wanted to cure his eyes. nevertheless madara could excell with or without sharingan...Madara states himself he was worried about the clan's future without a strong leader (himself) to protect it. If power wasn't an issue, any plain set of sharingan would have sufficed, desperate or not. It's not like plucking out your own brother's eyes is the first solution you'll think about if other, less important (to you, at least) people can give you what you need.

panos,greece

03-23-2009, 05:38 PM

Just because he lied about one thing doesn't automatically mean everything else he said isn't true. You can suspect he's lying about the rest as well, but it'd be no more than that: suspicion and speculation, and that's about it. Plus in fact, the best lies are often those that stick closest to the truth...
you understand that the same goes for you,right?
Madara states himself he was worried about the clan's future without a strong leader (himself) to protect it. If power wasn't an issue, any plain set of sharingan would have sufficed, desperate or not. It's not like plucking out your own brother's eyes is the first solution you'll think about if other, less important (to you, at least) people can give you what you need

manga page appreciated.izuna could have taken his seat as being ,in every way, equal to him.

Gottheim

03-23-2009, 05:50 PM

you understand that the same goes for you,right?I do. But that was never the point. You stated as fact that Madara lied about everything and took his brother's eyes by force. I was merely reminding you that we're both completely ignorant of that specific bit of Madara's story.

manga page appreciated.izuna could have taken his seat as being ,in every way, equal to him.Very true.Which would explain why Madara eventually looked like a self-serving, power-obsessed jerk to his clan, and why they banned him. Now here's your link (www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/03/). LOL, you should know better than to try me on this.:D

Ozaffer

03-23-2009, 06:02 PM

a tool does not make a ninja excell. it is the powers of him that make him excell.still, it is beyond my imagination how an almost blind madara managed too keep calm, dont panic and not only want his eyes cured but his powers

True right out of Zetzu's fly trap.. but MS for them was alittle different: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/06/ "with their Eyes they became the leaders of the Uchiha"
Besides that not only did Madara say he only wanted to protect his clan(http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/03/) so he most likely wouldn't pick a random member to kill for their eyes, but his clan was in a time of war in need of a strong leader so he needed MS.
and in what chapter does it say, 'he found the secret by chance'?
Umm about finding the secret by chance go back and look at all the links other posters gave you most of them point to how Madara took his brothers eyes out of desperation and gained a "Never Ending Light" by chance.

Where does it say the brothers read ancient text about a legendary EMS gained from trading eyes with your brother?

now now, do not make assumptions of yours and everyone else that agree with you, valid. Im not, im arguing a 100% speculation theory with pages from the Manga which tell us that Madara and his brother were the first MS users. So unless Kishi is lying about the Uchiha past and hes going to go over it all again thats the truth you wont accept.

True his brother could have took his seat just being the younger of the two brothers which makes me believe Madara took his younger brothers eye's instead of them being given to him unless he was superior to him in some way and they both were thinking of the clan.. more likely it had to be his brother for MS/ For his clan/ For Madara's story of him giving up his eyes to be believable.. but that's unknown for sure..http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/

panos,greece

03-23-2009, 06:04 PM

I do. But that was never the point. You stated as fact that Madara lied about everything and took his brother's eyes by force. I was merely reminding you that we're both completely ignorant of that specific bit of Madara's story.
not really.i just stated that as a reminder because you take as facts many things
Very true.Which would explain why Madara eventually looked like a self-serving, power-obsessed jerk to his clan, and why they banned him. Now here's your link (www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/03/). LOL, you should know better than to try me on this.:D
lol.this is not a battle and i am not trying you, i have just forgotten this page :yawn:
yes but the fact that izuna was equal to madara (as you agree) must have assured madara and allow (based on his moralities and etc.) him take normal sharingan...

@oz, i will answer to you tomorrow

Benzini

03-24-2009, 04:23 AM

Doesn't the databook say that Madara didn't steal Izuna's eyes?

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1175216&postcount=1
^^Databook translation for Izuna (courtesy of Gottheim)

"Izuna chose himself to present his own eyes, without hesitation, without a word. An act tantamount to suicide for an Uchiha, as they owe their fame to their doujutsu..."

"-The shinobi at the Uchiha founder's side. He sacrifices his light for the sake of his clan."

"-His eyes passed over to Madara, it doesn't take long before Izuna loses his life in battle..."

So according to the DB, Izuna sacrificed his eyes then decided to go to the battlefield :ninja:

----
As for Why Izuna was the one who sacrificed himself, I'd say it's because of the culture. Age is important. Madara, as the older brother, had supremacy over Izuna, even if they were equal when it came to ability.

Another example of this are the Hyuuga twins. Hinata's father being alive while Neji's father is dead, Hinata being in the main family while Neji is a branch member, all because Hinata's father was 2 minutes (or so) older.

----
Anyway...

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/07/
^^Says here that as Madara noticed the abnormalities in his body/eyes, he "did everything he could" and failed.

So the guy didn't know what to do. He tried to cure himself and couldn't.

After failing to restore his health/vision, he gave up trying to cure himself and decided to just get a "new source of light," that "new source" being Izuna's eyes.

Madara wanted Izuna's eyes because he wanted to maintain his current power level. He probably didn't want to try and take another normal/random Sharingan and level it up because chances are lots of Uchiha had been trying to achieve Mangekyou and failing after seeing Madara and Izuna do it. There was no guarantee that he could level up another pair of eyes.

Izuna, as the younger and apparently "devoted" (according to the databook) brother, sacrificed himself so that his elder brother, the current leader, could continue leading the clan.

Think I'm pretty much saying the same thing as everyone else.

----
So...
- Madara starts to go blind because he uses his power far more than Izuna to wipe out clans and gain fame/recognition.
- His eyes start to descend into the darkness quicker because of this.
- Izuna, devoted to the clan and his brother, sacrifices his eyes to his brother.
- Izuna dies on the battlefield
- The darkness never returns aka, Madara recovers and is no longer ill/blind, successfully achieving PMS.
- He also gains a new technique (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/) because of the transplant. (Could be that teleporting thang)
- Uchiha see it and think, "Woah cool!" They try to achieve that "brand new technique" by implanting each other's eyes and fail horribly. Probably because to achieve that "brand new technique" you both need Mangekyou. :phail: That's why "all the sacrifices piled up."

chakra

03-26-2009, 10:22 PM

this is an amazing theory. Even though most of it is speculation, it fits very nicely. You are great in finding/making these connections. I would have never thought of the sage trapping someone in the moon.

This might also explain why Madara created Akatsuki. Akatsuki means "dawn" but also, aka means "red or bloody" and tsuki means "moon". So one of the underlying purposes of the Akatsuki must have something to do with the moon!!!

Criminal

03-26-2009, 10:30 PM

If they destroy the moon in this manga, I'll be very disappointed.

It's bad enough these people can reduce cities to craters, but destroying celestial bodies makes the story go into DBZ territory...

Not cool at all.

:I

Smithy86

03-27-2009, 07:15 PM

it a nice theory, as i mentioned before i just really don't see the connections to hinduism even with these theories. if it's based off something i think it's most likely some japanese story

panos,greece

03-27-2009, 08:52 PM

Although, i like the fact that my theory is being praised i would like to ask all of you to not comment any further, because most of the points have been discussed over and over again ,and it is tiring. If you want to comment the effort and generally the theory i kindly ask you to rate it with stars instead of comments. Now if you really want to write or ask something it is higlly possible that your questions will not be answered.[/

Questions or comments such as: 1 Naruto is mainly based on japanese folklore
2 it is only speculation
3 Keke genkais-bloodline limits existed prior to rikoudo
4 the concept of the forbidden jutsu that the wife used is too vague
5 madara was the first one with upgraded eyes
6 nagato had rinnegan since birth
are all discussed throughout the thread. you can draw your conclusions from there. now if you really want to ask something just pm.

THIS IS ALL DONE IN ORDER TO AVOID WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO A CERTAIN OTHER THEORY.

THANK YOU

Ozaffer

03-27-2009, 11:42 PM

All current religions are based off old religions that are based off the world around groups of people. Story tellers take information from multiple religions and stories to make their own story but normally they don't take word for word from any one source. So while this theory is some good information I doubt Kishi will follow any one direct path, but write out his own story with only hints of his inspiration.

kayslive

05-19-2009, 04:42 AM

Did Rikudou Sennin receive the title of 'sage' before or after he introduced Ninjutsu to the world?

panos,greece

08-25-2009, 04:35 PM

*God_Realm*

08-25-2009, 04:52 PM

Meh I don't think he had sons. He could be alive atm but we don't know.

panos,greece

08-25-2009, 04:56 PM

Meh I don't think he had sons. He could be alive atm but we don't know.

Then i could be glad to hear how his Rinnegan continued to exist.

And it is pretty much confirmed by everyone that he is dead.

*God_Realm*

08-25-2009, 05:12 PM

Maybe it was a gift from god or maybe from the SoTSP's himself.

doomguy

08-25-2009, 07:13 PM

Super-avianti

08-26-2009, 12:20 PM

Rebirth maybe? Im not much into buddhism and eastern religions, but i think its the same as in Dalai Lama's case (as it is believed).

Remember the words of Jiraiya, he believed that Nagato is a messiah (rebirthed). I think Nagato's will was not strong enough so after Yahiko's death (who nota bene had faith in Nagato also) he chose dark path, thats why later he became weak in mind and body (well he got insane). Thus Madara easily manipulated him.
I pretty much agree, I can't see the sage of the six paths relying on dead boies, enslave himself to Gedo Mazo, I think we only saw the dark side of Rin'neggan abilities. The sage of the six path must have somewhat similar power but not taking such a perverting shape.
He may had used Apostle for example (alive people trusting him) instead of dead body. He may have take complete control of them or share is power.
Actually sharing power must be the best case as controling puppets have limitation (as shown by Nagato, so super jutsu need to have puppet in close range).
Imagine six potent ninjas (the sic paths) with their own mind intelligence and powers chakra empowered by rin'negan, sharing eyesight + the 7 path (the sage himself). That's free the sage from a lot of constrains.

OutShoneGod

08-26-2009, 01:30 PM

I pretty much agree, I can't see the sage of the six paths relying on dead boies, enslave himself to Gedo Mazo, I think we only saw the dark side of Rin'neggan abilities. The sage of the six path must have somewhat similar power but not taking such a perverting shape.
He may had used Apostle for example (alive people trusting him) instead of dead body. He may have take complete control of them or share is power.
Actually sharing power must be the best case as controling puppets have limitation (as shown by Nagato, so super jutsu need to have puppet in close range).
Imagine six potent ninjas (the sic paths) with their own mind intelligence and powers chakra empowered by rin'negan, sharing eyesight + the 7 path (the sage himself). That's free the sage from a lot of constrains.

Sounds pretty cool, but then there is the fact of finding these capable ninja to do this. Plus, wouldn't he then be able to master all chakra affinities?

Lairt

08-31-2009, 06:30 AM

Now if you really want to write or ask something it is higlly possible that your questions will not be answered.

@Panos
i've read your theory and the responses long ago. Its pretty good. there're minor flaws (or just my disagreement) at yours, but i didn't see anyone discussing them.

however, i realize that the major issues have been discussed.

This swan had the ability to separate good from evil and deliver judgement. The connection between the swan and Konan is obvious
I can't see that. Konan too was engulfed in Pein's ambition

I do not want to say anything about Vishnu because he is not referred in my theory at all
You did it: "Vishnu the maintainer, gave to a woman another tool with divine properties, the Byakugan. "
well its just writting error :)

the true reason he had come back was to kill their father
Since his bro is weaker than Rikudou, shouldn't he killed his bro first?

According to your theory, when sharingan is not activated, its appearance should be similar to Hyuugas

So sojobo who was still in the first uchiha’s soul transferred into madara and gave him mystical powers like teleportation and immortality
Why didn't that Sojobo give teleportation jutsu to the 1st uchiha so that he can unsealed himself?

Konoha'sYellowFlash

08-31-2009, 09:18 AM

I :thumbup:like the theory, it's great! Praise to those who give time and efforts producing new knowledge for the benefits of many interested individuals!

Balderheim

09-01-2009, 08:47 AM

good speculation indeed, but excactly where is it confirmed that Rikodu-sama is dead?

Madara-sensei

09-01-2009, 03:21 PM

panos,greece

09-02-2009, 07:26 PM

-sigh- wat a disaster every single theory has always included some sort of myth. I never seen such theorys getting true. But you have done a good job on going through all these info and putting them together.

I have to disagree with you. Have you reac the spoilers? Although not 100% true but oif you read them you will undertsnad how corect i am.

Covenant

09-02-2009, 07:58 PM

hey don't talk about spoilers out side the spoiler thread

ravaha

09-02-2009, 08:18 PM

I think the admins will let him pass on this... especially since this theory........................ well you know what i mean.

hey222

09-02-2009, 08:44 PM

Good theory, however, I don't feel the same about "Final piece of my theory" part. Hashirama had a special bloodline that allowed him to control bijuus. Although not as strong we see this through Yamato forcefully putting down naruto while in fox mode. If we recall he had the ability to control bijuus the fox is a bijuu. So, even though Madara used the fox in his fight with Shodai I can't see that going well for Madara because of what Shodai can to bijuus.

ogieboy042

09-02-2009, 11:22 PM

So much time has passed that is nostalgic. Anyway, it turns out to be that i was correct in most of the things. Seven sages. Evil chakra in every Uchiha. etc etc etc

It is just the history that remains to be seen. Anyway thank you for giving me the opportunity to post the theory!

you rock :thumbup::thumbup:, when i read the latest spoiler one thing come up my mind, i read somewhere Theory .then it was you lol heheheh nice

panos,greece

09-03-2009, 09:34 AM

you rock :thumbup::thumbup:, when i read the latest spoiler one thing come up my mind, i read somewhere Theory .then it was you lol heheheh nice

Thank you! I appreciate it!

jadenkiuma

09-03-2009, 04:45 PM

its not only some of this that is speculation BUT ALL OF IT!

panos,greece

09-03-2009, 06:49 PM

its not only some of this that is speculation BUT ALL OF IT!

Do you keep up with the manga "noob". I doubt it...

chakra

09-03-2009, 10:44 PM

how in the world did you come up with this theory and have it almost match the latest spoilers? what made you think of rikodou having two sons?

TyPh00nKid

09-05-2009, 04:27 PM

I bow down to you good sir lol :ff: . Wow some of your theory really fits with how the manga is going right. Like the two sons thing and you figure that out BY TWO CANDLES. Genius pure genius(or luck lol). I was reading the manga and I was like " hold on ive read this before lol". Anyways good job man

Ummmm.........Herrrrroooo Kishi u there ?

Ralphh

09-06-2009, 11:52 PM

i was just amazed how you found all these. u looked through myths and buddha stuff really really amazing. when i read the last chapter i was like wow didnt some dude made spectulations bout this? xD
proppss.

eddie uchiha

09-09-2009, 08:36 AM

very good job man