[Theory] Madara's Immortality

[Jdblaze85]

(You may skip this first part to proceed directly to theory)

A little back-story about how my train-of-thought arrived on this theory. I was thinking about what type of power gives manga-writers and television writers the most liberty. I looked at bleach, naruto and the TV series heroes. Both in naruto and bleach illusion powers are prominent. (Aizen in bleach, Uchiha in Naruto) What illusion powers do is allow manga writers the ability to create what I call "Fake frames." Fake frames are frames that we presently believe to be correct, but are not. An example of a fake frame:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/01/ (Top box)

Itachi wasn't really stabbed by sasuke, it was an illusion. The creation of fake frames allows writers to spontaneously change reality.

Next, on to heroes. I was looking at two powers from this show. Namely, teleportation and time travel. With those two powers combined it gives the writers of that television show the liberty to change their entire universe every season if they so see fit.

And then I realized why and more importantly how Madara Uchiha was alive.

****THEORY SECTION****

Madara did not die at the valley of the end.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/12/

This page is central to my theory. Read it. Twice. Namely the two middle pannels.

Madara, "I died there... or so they thought. Even Hashirama thought so. I was forgotten by everyone, even history."

So, what happened to Madara? There are clues given to how he lived from earlier chapters in the manga:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/10/

Space-Time Ninjutsu. Kakashi says so himself the only way Tobi could have survived Shino's attack was a space-time ninjutsu of an unheard of level. This is the only way Tobi could have survived Amaterasu. He certainly didn't Mangekyo-Sharingan the flames away. He went back in time before he was hit by the flames and then time traveled back to the present. This is also how I believe he survived the Valley of the End. He traveled to the future.

Madara escaped death by time-traveling to the future. It expalins why Itachi calls him a former shell of himself. Why? Because Hashirama did beat the living bjeezus out of him. (Probably why he only has one sharingan left too!) Time travel &/or teleportation also explains Madara's ability to move so quickly:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/07/

So Madara's claim that he was forgotten by history makes a bit more sense now too. He wasn't forgotten because people assumed him dead. He was forgotten because he was no longer apart of history having removed himself from it and placed himself in the future. Tying back to my initial thoughts about super-powers and giving the writers great amounts of liberty. Combining both time travel + illusion basically lets the writers have the most liberty to create whatever they want to create. If something isn't going the way they like - they just go back in time and change it. Or, in Madara's case, you go to the future when the person who nearly killed you is no longer alive and exact your revenge on the village that had forsaken you. Now that the man who controls Bijuu is no longer among the living; Madara is free to assemble the greatest chakra weapon ever created and eliminate Konohagakure once and for all.

What are your thoughts OM community? Do you believe Madara is amongst the living because of time travel as well? Or do you believe something far more sinister is afoot? Feel free to discuss!

Thanks for your time.

-Jdblaze

[Gottheim]

Just a simple question: if Madara can travel that far back and forth in time, why doesn't he just use that to his advantage and make his plans accordingly? He could rule the world all by himself. No need for Akatsuki, bijuu-hunting and God Pain knows what else, and least of all Sasuke. All he'd need to do is manipulate past events in the way that best suits him.

Madara escaped death by time-traveling to the future. It explains why Itachi calls him a former shell of himself. That's a mistranslation. Itachi says Madara is a loser. Nothing more, nothing less.

Probably why he only has one sharingan left too!We don't know for a fact if he has a sharingan missing. Just because his mask conceals it doesn't mean it's not there.

He wasn't forgotten because people assumed him dead. He was forgotten because he was no longer apart of history having removed himself from it and placed himself in the future.Madara was supposedly dead. That's how he was "forgotten". He'd lost the spotlight, that's all. Everyone in Konoha who's opened a history book knows about Madara. The older generation (like Sarutobi) probably saw him in the flesh too. Madara has a freakin' big statue of him in the Valley of the End, and the rebelling Uchiha assembled under his name (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/13/), as evidenced by the inscription on the gravestone (mid panel): "マダラ"="Madara".

I'm not against the idea of Madara somehow having power over time and space. I used to have a similar theory a few months ago. But you're making it waaaaaaaaaaay too powerful to be consistent with the current storyline.

[Bleachfreak&Narutard]

To me Madara is clearly inmortal due to the fact of how long he has been alive
since around eighty years ago b4 the series started and now dam he's like
in his old hundreds iThink

But the 2 Akatsuki we all knoe are inmortal are

Hidan
Kakuzu

[My December]

Did he ever said he was immortal? Cause I don't seem to remember that.
Probably he gets old pretty slowly.

[Oci]

i think his ability is to move to different place in the current time, not to move to different time in the current place.

if kakashi said it was a space-time ninjutsu, that's maybe because he saw tobi/madara teleported and not time-travelled.

[hoibideptrai]

he probably at the age of 91 - 99 now or more, not Immortal

[ShatteredHope]

Sorry man, but Madara cannot travel back and forth in time at all.

If he could, he should have gone back and killed Hashirama Senju and his brother when they were babies.

Maybe he could go back now, and bring Izuna back, but does that mean he would never get EMS? Confusing, right?

-----------------

And Madara isn't in the present because of time-travel at all. Madara has been busy over the years, becoming Mizukage and operating Akatsuki etc.

-------------------

And as Gottheim rightly said, Madara has not been 'forgotten' at all. Jiraiya even suspected that he was behind the Fox attack. A huge statue has been erected to commemorate the battle between him and the 1st Hokage. His story was probably known by everyone, including the Uchihas and the elders, who might have seen him in person (they are old enough).

------------------

Without getting into any physics, space-time jutsu in Naruto is just a fancy word for teleportation and warping. Let's take examples:

- Summoning technique - teleports animals over great distances instantly
- Hiraishin - similar to the summoning technique, but executed by oneself

But Madara's jutsu is superior because it does not involve seals, and also includes the 'warping' feature, but the details and limitations of his jutsu are as yet unknown (and will probably remain as such until he gets his first battle).

Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/417/11/), Madara is seen teleporting, but instead of using seals, there's a kind of dimensional wormhole or portal. As I said, that is probably one reason it is superior to the 4th's ST-jutsu.

-------------------

Time travel does not exist in Naruto. On the off-chance that it does, I can only imagine that it would probably be the ultimate ability of the Rinnegan, God's eyes, because it would be the most godly thing imaginable, not to mention totally uncool.....

This probably belongs in the RITS thread.

[Gimli]

Interesting, I was thinking about this last night before my internet connection broke.

I don't think it's all that powerful however, given how taxing Mangekyo is.
About the immortality, that was what Itachi said when he was first telling Sasuke about Madara. I don't think he's truly immortal, though. Or rather, he could extend his life, perhaps even permanently, but I think that he could still be killed permanently. If he had actually died back then, that would have been it.
I don't think there's much need to try and guess what his powers are, as they have been stated as space/time ninjutsu. Unlike the others, he simply tapped into all of them. That would mean he can simply bend time to his will, making it go back and forth and change the speed. And he can obviously also manipulate space as well. It seems to me that he's using a different dimension for the whole thing. In fact, I think that dimension is the source of all Sharingan powers, but I don't know how exactly. It would make sense that all of Sharingan powers have one source, given how the predicting ability of the basic Sharingan is also rooted in time (being able to predict the future).
I suspect that he's permanently spending some of his chakra on making time go slower, in order to stay alive this long, much like Tsunade uses her chakra to make herself appear young.

[UsableHero]

Interesting, I was thinking about this last night before my internet connection broke.

I don't think it's all that powerful however, given how taxing Mangekyo is.
About the immortality, that was what Itachi said when he was first telling Sasuke about Madara. I don't think he's truly immortal, though. Or rather, he could extend his life, perhaps even permanently, but I think that he could still be killed permanently. If he had actually died back then, that would have been it.
I don't think there's much need to try and guess what his powers are, as they have been stated as space/time ninjutsu. Unlike the others, he simply tapped into all of them. That would mean he can simply bend time to his will, making it go back and forth and change the speed. And he can obviously also manipulate space as well. It seems to me that he's using a different dimension for the whole thing. In fact, I think that dimension is the source of all Sharingan powers, but I don't know how exactly. It would make sense that all of Sharingan powers have one source, given how the predicting ability of the basic Sharingan is also rooted in time (being able to predict the future).
I suspect that he's permanently spending some of his chakra on making time go slower, in order to stay alive this long, much like Tsunade uses her chakra to make herself appear young.

If that is the case then, it would have to start when he died at the Valley of the End. If he had the powers before losing to The First; then why would he lose to The First?

It makes me think that, he actually died. Maybe there is another level after EMS. That requires you to die..

[Decorus]

According to the pictures we have seen Madara got a katana shoved thru his chest. Its entirely possible to survive that. Incredibly unlikely, but it can happen even in the real world.

Itachi referred to Madara as an invincible immortal. In the same part he also claims that Madara retains his full powers and both of his eyes.

Its much more likely he was impaled with the katana fell over the falls and was swept away by the current. Miles away he ended up on the shore mortally wounded and somehow managed to survive. He then crawled away to lick his wounds and plot revenge.

[mike3881]

Ok I read this theory and it doesn't make sence at all. Ok how does going to the fututre save your life. What I mean is if you get shot by a gun how is going to the future save your life. The only way to save your life is to go back in time and not get shot, so the only way Madara could save his life through using a Time Jitsu is to go back in time before he fought Shodai and not fight Shodai to provent his death. If Madara would have gone to the future he still would be hurt right ? What traveling through time heals you that doesn't make sence but what does make sence is going back in time to prevent the event that got you killed in the first place. If that happened then no one would know about the fight between Shodai and Madara. See thats why this theory makes no sence at all.

[BobbyKay]

Everyone assumes Tobi is Madara just because he said it. I am not arguing it either way as it seems like he would have nothing to gain by lying, but regardless...
If he is Madara, true and in the flesh, one must wonder how he achieves it. I would like to propose a theory about this.

1) Every immortality jutsu so far in the manga involves the exploitation of other lives. Orochimaru takes over other bodies, Kakuzu took other's hearts, Hidan was in a religion that required you to kill everyone else, so on. This most likely means if Madara is still alive then he is exploiting other lives. This leads to the next point: how is he able to stay alive with just any body? It seems as if he would require special bodies, namely Uchia. Now, a person can live a long time in the Naruto earth without imortality through sheer mass of chakra. So, Lets imagine that Madara did live up until the time Itatchi killed his clan. Maybe he killed a few Uchias here and there, maybe not. Regardless, he would be getting old and weak. What if he went to help Itatchi for a specific reason? Madara always wears a mask but has different haircuts whenever he is seen in flashbacks. What if he took over the bodies of the Uchia somewhat like orochimaru's jutsu? That may be why he wears the mask, so as to not have a different face everytime he access a new body. Less would believe him if he just said he was Madara but had the face of someone who lived just a few years ago.

Now, as to how he got thjose bodies. He seems to have allegiances to Pain. One of those bodies has the ability to bring dead bodies back. What if Madara agreed to help out Pain achieve his goals on the condition that he revived bodies occasionally from the dead Uchia in order to have Madara to continue to live on.

Anyways, so this would show why Madara, suposedly the most formidable ninja since the first hokage, is loyal to a man who is having a duzy of a time standing on his last leg hooked up to a machine where he has to have Konan wait on him hand and foot.

[Aphrodisiac]

May b ur right but I feel inclined to think he follows simmilar methods used by oro nd u might b right abt him taking a few bodies with him. He can transplant the MS from his previous realm to his new one.

But I disagree abt the relation betn Pein nd Madara; Madara is not in any way loyal to Pein its d other way around moreovr Madara is just using him. Nice one but this might b moved

[zipykido]

I think it has to do with transferring his eyes over to a new host. Then again he's got unlimited MS so he could just manipulate time/space.

[SKBP]

I think it has to do with transferring his eyes over to a new host. Then again he's got unlimited MS so he could just manipulate time/space.

It would be interesting if Madara is the sharingan , he would make a jutsu to put his soul or essence in his EMS and give it to a new host and bam he has a new body.

[Ozaffer]

well i like the idea your trying to figure out how EMS grants Madara immortality rather then just accepting that is an effect from gaining EMS. But as for Madara doing what Oro does there are a few problems. One you say he would need Uchiha bodies well he doesn't kill a few Uchiha he helped Massacre them all and if it was anything like Oro's technique he would have had to leave with alot of bodies to transfer every 3 years. The next problem is Oro's immortality was rejected and made fun of by Itachi and Saskue but yet Itachi respects Madara's power as immortal which kind of shows it's something else completely.

Next what you say about pain doesn't make sense, are you saying he would have to bring these bodies back to life to jump into them? If so I guess this goes along with and has the same problems as the Oro reanimation body snatch theory. Really I don't see Kishi giving his new head villain the same techinique as his old head villain either he really did become invincible from EMS or there's another explanation.

[Plainsfox]

Something I've been thinking about....what happens when an EMS user takes the eyes of another EMS user?

[Ozaffer]

Something I've been thinking about....what happens when an EMS user takes the eyes of another EMS user?

Madara is the only EMS user so no one knows, could explain why Madara wanted Saskue to take Itachi's eyes a whole never ending cycle of eye stealing until theres one Uchiha left kinda thing.

[Plainsfox]

Right. We almost have that potential with Sasuke though. I get this feeling that Madara is trying to guide him up the path so that he can find out ><

[SKBP]

Something I've been thinking about....what happens when an EMS user takes the eyes of another EMS user?

Never been done before but Kishi might do it considering that his motiff of impossible to possible occurs.

[Mr. Host]

My theroy: When Shino (is he still alive?) attacked him they came to a conclusion that he phased his body away which is why attacks went right through him. When he is in this phased stage he doesn't age cause he isn't there. So if he spent half the time like this it would double his lifespan. The more time he spent like this the longer he would live, or the place he goes in between teleportations doesn't have time so maybe he spent years there not aging.

[My December]

I dislike the theory about Madara being immortal with the same way as Orochimaru did :/
Does seem fit with Madara's reputation.

And if Madara needs Pain to keep on surviving, why does he act like he is Pain's superior?

[sena-kun21]

Since there's already a theory about Madara's immortality...I'll be merging it with that.

[Ozaffer]

My theroy: When Shino (is he still alive?) attacked him they came to a conclusion that he phased his body away which is why attacks went right through him. When he is in this phased stage he doesn't age cause he isn't there. So if he spent half the time like this it would double his lifespan. The more time he spent like this the longer he would live, or the place he goes in between teleportations doesn't have time so maybe he spent years there not aging.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/383/01/
(Notice the footprint in Naruto's face :lol:)
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/281/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/13/
(notice sound from madara's arm pushing the sword back)
I have heard this before and this was the only problem I could find with this theory.

That and how cocky Madara acts makes it seem like he has some real power and he's not just a shadow form or something. It's just his space/timejutsu like Kakashi said that's why some times he's solid some times hes phased out.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/280/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/09/
(space/time ninjustsu more advanced then the fourths? impossible, unless you have EMS)

[onlyonepost097]

Maybe the phasing is as simple as switching dimensions. A similar dimension with different rules of physics. Depending on whose theory you follow about the ifinate number realities. One could have extremely slow moving time, another where skin is as hard as stone. Not that he goes to that reality , but that he temporarily overlaps that dimension over himself.

[marahk]

I guess that his immortality is from his "Eternal MS". But as itachi sayd, Madara is not strong as he used to be.

Or hes EMS makes him "immortal" but he still become weaker with time, or when he did fight the first hokage, he used the kyuubi to help, but the shodaime was able to defeat him cause he could also surpress the kyuubi powers.
He survived, but he was injured, i guess that he may have lost an eye(that would explain Tobi mask).
Without an eye, his powers did drop a lot, maybe in half or more. After he lost to shodaime, the kyuubi was also lost, (the sharingan have to power to control the kyuubi, but i doubt that has the power to summon it). Thats why Madara took so long to attack konoha again, he was trying to find the kyuubi, when he did find it, he used its power trying to destroy konoha, sadly, the 4th hokage stop his plans and seal the kyuubi in naruto. Madara get mad, but at the same time he descovered of itachi and sasuke, and made a plan to use their eyes to achieve his old powers again. At the same time, he did wanted the power of the kyuubi again, with this he made the akatsuki go after the Bijuus, so when they took the kyuubi he would control that again.

[djray]

madara taught sasuke how to put out the flames http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/10/

itachi didnt know how to put out the flames

[Singoku]

I am agreed with the comments, he cant travel in time..and the missing eye is to confuse the readers..everyone knows about Obito's story..I am sure its just one more of those freaking idèas of Kishimato..Take a look at Nagato! EEEK! I am sure Madara is missing body parts or something..(joke) - We have seen Itachi performing jutsu with one hand and putting people in a illusion with a finger! thats what I call MS Skills lol..and performing jutsu with no hand signs is nothing for a [ETERNAL MANGEKYO SHARINGAN USER] - If Sharingan has the skills to see and copy others -jutsu, and summon and control with a better sharingan then I am sure that the last stage of sharingan can do something with rejecting jutsu's

Speed (First stage of sharingan)
Offensive (Second stage of Sharingan)
Defensive (Third Stage of sharingan)

I am sure this is how he rejected ameteratsu..and there is a reason why he is just using his Gen Jutsu eye, and not the Nin Jutsu left eye.

[joshua019]

WRONG..... If madara can use a time travelling tech from the beginning then he would have won against the 1st hokage then he wont even bother about anything...... I think madara's time/space has something to do with his other eye!!!!

[OutShoneGod]

I don't like it.

I can see him using his jutsu to disappear when fighting Shodai but not moving throught time as he would then have no need for akatsuki. He could spy on his own and kill on his own and he certainly has enough power to get the bijuu's so...?

[Graeystone]

Maybe Madra is like Schrodinger from Hellsing. "Here and There, Nowhere and Everywhere"

[Mes-sage]

Well I would say it had something to do with pains tech....maybe

[Zabuza Momochi]

Maybe Madra is like Schrodinger from Hellsing. "Here and There, Nowhere and Everywhere"

then he'd be impossible to kill , cuz nobody in the naruto universe is even close to as strong as alucard

[Ken Masters]

Madara didn't teach Sasuke squat. Don't make that up, there's enough confusion already.

[konohastylez]

maybe EMS means his eyes are immortal...unfortanely his body isnt so hes just a ghost with living eyes just exsisting but not doing anything

[H83]

maybe Madara´s EMS enables him to teleport himself to an dimension where time simply stands still forever, this way he wouldn´t grow old when he is in that dimension...
Or maybe Tobi isn´t Madara...

[Graeystone]

then he'd be impossible to kill , cuz nobody in the naruto universe is even close to as strong as alucard

If Madara is like what I suggested then it would be possible to kill him. It would take another space/time jutsu that could strike at Madara's vital spot(s) as he exists in every aspect of space/time all at once.

Naruto or whoever fights Madara in the 'present' in the 'place' called Kohona.
The opponents used the space/time jutsu and stabs Madara in the heart.
Yesterday in every second that Madara existed he would receive the same fatal wound.
Three weeks ago Madara who is in Cloud country receives the same fatal injuries.
During his battle with the First Madara receives the stab in the heart.
And so on and so on-
In other words every moment of Madara's existence would be killed. From being in his mother's womb to the present where the initial blow was done.

I know there are two problems with this-
History would change.(Probably for the better for the most part.)
Whoever uses the jutsu would die.

[UR WRST NIGHTMARE!!]

Well, Itachi did say that Madara was the only one to learn the sharingan's final secret,
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/17/
So maybe the last secret is immortality/prolonged life?

[dumbboy]

When Madara tried to take off his mask in front of Sasuke, it did show part of his face and what looks to be rinkles to me. I think he is just a very old dude althoughI can be mistaken.

[Burraddo]

Yea nah, if Madara could time travel why did the part of his face we saw look old, wouldnt he still be young if he finished that fight with hashirama then jumped forward in time? I think he just layed low for several years meanwhile doing something to prolong his life, which I'm sure we'll find out how he did it sooner or later.
I cant see any time travel going on in Naruto that would be too outrageous, space-time jutsu i guess its just reffered to as such cos he can move instantly from one place to another without the time changing, plus if he could time travel wouldnt he just go back to the attack on Konoha with the 9 tails and have as many goes at it as he wants until he finally got it right. nah too farfetched, some times its best not too think too much into stuff hey.

[amaury_uchiha]

(You may skip this first part to proceed directly to theory)

A little back-story about how my train-of-thought arrived on this theory. I was thinking about what type of power gives manga-writers and television writers the most liberty. I looked at bleach, naruto and the TV series heroes. Both in naruto and bleach illusion powers are prominent. (Aizen in bleach, Uchiha in Naruto) What illusion powers do is allow manga writers the ability to create what I call "Fake frames." Fake frames are frames that we presently believe to be correct, but are not. An example of a fake frame:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/01/ (Top box)

Itachi wasn't really stabbed by sasuke, it was an illusion. The creation of fake frames allows writers to spontaneously change reality.

Next, on to heroes. I was looking at two powers from this show. Namely, teleportation and time travel. With those two powers combined it gives the writers of that television show the liberty to change their entire universe every season if they so see fit.

And then I realized why and more importantly how Madara Uchiha was alive.

****THEORY SECTION****

Madara did not die at the valley of the end.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/12/

This page is central to my theory. Read it. Twice. Namely the two middle pannels.

Madara, "I died there... or so they thought. Even Hashirama thought so. I was forgotten by everyone, even history."

So, what happened to Madara? There are clues given to how he lived from earlier chapters in the manga:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/10/

Space-Time Ninjutsu. Kakashi says so himself the only way Tobi could have survived Shino's attack was a space-time ninjutsu of an unheard of level. This is the only way Tobi could have survived Amaterasu. He certainly didn't Mangekyo-Sharingan the flames away. He went back in time before he was hit by the flames and then time traveled back to the present. This is also how I believe he survived the Valley of the End. He traveled to the future.

Madara escaped death by time-traveling to the future. It expalins why Itachi calls him a former shell of himself. Why? Because Hashirama did beat the living bjeezus out of him. (Probably why he only has one sharingan left too!) Time travel &/or teleportation also explains Madara's ability to move so quickly:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/07/

So Madara's claim that he was forgotten by history makes a bit more sense now too. He wasn't forgotten because people assumed him dead. He was forgotten because he was no longer apart of history having removed himself from it and placed himself in the future. Tying back to my initial thoughts about super-powers and giving the writers great amounts of liberty. Combining both time travel + illusion basically lets the writers have the most liberty to create whatever they want to create. If something isn't going the way they like - they just go back in time and change it. Or, in Madara's case, you go to the future when the person who nearly killed you is no longer alive and exact your revenge on the village that had forsaken you. Now that the man who controls Bijuu is no longer among the living; Madara is free to assemble the greatest chakra weapon ever created and eliminate Konohagakure once and for all.

What are your thoughts OM community? Do you believe Madara is amongst the living because of time travel as well? Or do you believe something far more sinister is afoot? Feel free to discuss!

Thanks for your time.

-Jdblaze

wouldnt it have made more sense to travel to the past? and kill hashirama as a baby? or back b4 the uchihas abandoned

[mooseticals]

my theory is that th reason that madara live so long that he is close to realation to Susanoo the father of the so called first uchiha and he still has the the demon blood in him and the reason why he was thought to being killed but he survived is because he has the ability to teleport part of his body

[Liquid]

If this is correct, maybe Madara sacrificed his left eye to time travel. ^^

[alexmedvec]

Just a simple question: if Madara can travel that far back and forth in time, why doesn't he just use that to his advantage and make his plans accordingly? He could rule the world all by himself. No need for Akatsuki, bijuu-hunting and God Pain knows what else, and least of all Sasuke. All he'd need to do is manipulate past events in the way that best suits him.

That's a mistranslation. Itachi says Madara is a loser. Nothing more, nothing less.

We don't know for a fact if he has a sharingan missing. Just because his mask conceals it doesn't mean it's not there.

Madara was supposedly dead. That's how he was "forgotten". He'd lost the spotlight, that's all. Everyone in Konoha who's opened a history book knows about Madara. The older generation (like Sarutobi) probably saw him in the flesh too. Madara has a freakin' big statue of him in the Valley of the End, and the rebelling Uchiha assembled under his name (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/13/), as evidenced by the inscription on the gravestone (mid panel): "マダラ"="Madara".

I'm not against the idea of Madara somehow having power over time and space. I used to have a similar theory a few months ago. But you're making it waaaaaaaaaaay too powerful to be consistent with the current storyline.

agreed. if madra really had "time travel" he ould've never lost to the 1st. and if he didnt, he would reversed time until he did. ill stick to madra=danzo theory.

[*img]http://mynaruto2talk.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/danzohassharingan.jpg[/img]

[Makiuchi]

I've got a theory supporting your theory. I see al these people saying *he has way too much power if he can manipulate time. Well i jsut have an idea on this. Kakashi ASSUMES he knows space/time justu and used it when fight kakashi's team. Well look at it like this, remember madara in the past showed flashbacks of the most advanced MS sharingan we have seen to date. POSSIBLY he skipeed ahead in time once. Maybe it took MASSIVE amounts of power, and thusly he hasn't done the same thing over and over. We still haven't seen him seriously fight, so it's possible that he can only use the space part of the PS to basically teleport.

A counter theory is that it just ment taht he can bend space/time but cant break TIME its self, he is just moving faster than he would if he werent using that justsu in normal time.

Another theoyr is that he jsut sat in his space time realm for so long and didn't age. * sort of like cryo sleep* But it is taxing.

We really need way more info to tell what the hell madara can do. I just hope we can see his real MS in battle and then itachi will revive and become uber and then madara will kill sasuke and naruto will kill madara and itachi will be naruto's friend! *had to make an awesome scenario, but i was serious before this paragraph*

[Kishimoto?]

Maybe we are all over thinking this Madara Uchicha may have a super speed teleportation jutsu that is incredible but were all getting fooled because of NBC's Heroes, its not that type of Ability, I think that it EMS is different from MS in a way were it combines The Genjutsu Eye and The Ninjutsu Eye to create even greater jutsu. Meh my 2 cents.

[XxXSasuke]

hi i'm only new here so please help me okay,i don't really understand why is Madara is Immortal??? I'm kind of confuse....

[MEdu]

wouldnt it have made more sense to travel to the past? and kill hashirama as a baby? or back b4 the uchihas abandoned
maybe he can travel only in the future

[Mes-sage]

hi i'm only new here so please help me okay,i don't really understand why is Madara is Immortal??? I'm kind of confuse....

Well lets see because.He is still alive after who knows how many years.Thats enough to be called immortal.

[Ryuusei]

i think i kinda get the theory behind his jutsu, maybe its kinda like he only can go back so far, and the only reality it can effect is his own, but not enough to go back and change something major. kinda like go back right before the hit or something like that

[Monkeymitch95]

No sasuke figured that out himself bcuz he wanted to save karin

[Monkeymitch95]

madara taught sasuke how to put out the flames http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/10/

itachi didnt know how to put out the flames

sorry about the double post
but sasuke didnt learn it from madara he was just trying to save karins life

[Decorus]

Madara simply teleported himself out of the flames and then used unknown method to stop them. Its likely Itachi did not know Madara could teleport himself around and thats why the Amaterasu trap failed to kill him. If Itachi had been aware of this he would have used a different trap to kill Madara.

[SHADOWSAGE]

Madara simply teleported himself out of the flames and then used unknown method to stop them. Its likely Itachi did not know Madara could teleport himself around and thats why the Amaterasu trap failed to kill him. If Itachi had been aware of this he would have used a different trap to kill Madara.

you think itachi was around him all that time and didn't know any of his techniques... lolz... he knew what madara could do just not everything... thats why he said good thing he didn't let itachi know everything... after itachi died...

[Decorus]

Considering Madara taught him yes Itachi knew some of his techniques. He even probably figured out quite a bit of what Madara could do. What I'm saying is Itachi was unware of Madara's ability to teleport himself. Thats a pretty big trump card I would keep secret from my apprentice who is plotting to kill me.

[Amazigh Clan]

I think I have a theory how madara could live so long! I think you all know Dragonball and that Kishimoto was a very big fan of Dragonball. Because of that he based many thing in Naruto on Dragonball. If you think back in Dragonball there was a dimension where Goku and his friends alswas trained. When 1 year passed in this dimension then on the earth only 1 day passed. Now what if Madara know a dimonsion where it´s the oposite? Meaning: 1 day in his dimonsion would mean a whole year in the normal world. I think that Madara "implemented" his thoughts and plans in a person (he can do this with the sharingan like danzou and i think even more powerful) and hid himself in this dimension. Now the only thing that he have to do is wait in his dimension until the person makes his plan and collects all bijuu. When the time comes Madara reveals himself and comes out of his hiding place :D Do you know what i mean? What do you think? :thumbup:

[Mr Madara]

I think I have a theory how madara could live so long! I think you all know Dragonball and that Kishimoto was a very big fan of Dragonball. Because of that he based many thing in Naruto on Dragonball. If you think back in Dragonball there was a dimension where Goku and his friends alswas trained. When 1 year passed in this dimension then on the earth only 1 day passed. Now what if Madara know a dimonsion where it´s the oposite? Meaning: 1 day in his dimonsion would mean a whole year in the normal world. I think that Madara "implemented" his thoughts and plans in a person (he can do this with the sharingan like danzou and i think even more powerful) and hid himself in this dimension. Now the only thing that he have to do is wait in his dimension until the person makes his plan and collects all bijuu. When the time comes Madara reveals himself and comes out of his hiding place :D Do you know what i mean? What do you think? :thumbup:

I think no.

[narutohellking23]

I dont believe he really is Immortal at all

[tigerarmy_90]

To me Madara is clearly inmortal due to the fact of how long he has been alive
since around eighty years ago b4 the series started and now dam he's like
in his old hundreds iThink

But the 2 Akatsuki we all knoe are inmortal are

Hidan
Kakuzu

if you think about it all of akutsuki are immortal in some way....

hidan & kakuzu- no brainer
tobi- well you know
pein- he couldnt die in battle and so thats how he became "god"
sasori- well he was a living heart living in his ageless puppets
i think thats it?!

[narutohellking23]

if you think about it all of akutsuki are immortal in some way....

hidan & kakuzu- no brainer
tobi- well you know
pein- he couldnt die in battle and so thats how he became "god"
sasori- well he was a living heart living in his ageless puppets
i think thats it?!

you forget Oro

[MangaSpammer]

Orochimaru have many body's implanted on his body >.> what a creepy guy

[1062675]

Truthfully, the original post makes so much sense, i could literally see Kishimoto explaining that as how he survived. Though....im also thinking somehow Madara isnt immortal. If he was immortal, he could have easily taken out the Kage's after he appeared, but it seems like he is constantly evading battles.

Also, the fact that he summoned the Kyuubi, its got me thinking that he somehow has some sort of ability that allows him to not only summon them, but maybe absorb the life force of Mystical Creatures in the Naruto Universe.

That or he has some more powerful form of Tsukuyomi (Like him being able to completely immerse someone in an illusion, without sending their mind to the world of Tsukuyomi, appearing as if he just completely dissapeared before thier eyes, while stealthily leaving the area). I could see it being possible, seeing as he is the only living character with the EMS, which we have hardly seen any of its true potential/abilities.

I just dont see how he could have lost the battle against the 1st Hokage if he had EMS at the time

[sage naruto uzumaki]

well its simple we havn't seen the first's true power in action remember that madara himself said that the first orignally had all the bijus in his conrol plus his wood based techniques he also had earth and water techniques because wood is made by water and earth as yamato explained

[Graeystone]

Immortality in Naruto-
Hidan - Head is buried in Nara's forest.
Orochimaru - Reduced to a couple of white snakes that escaped Susanoo's sword and another chunk is fused to Kabuto.
Madara - Practically a ghost.

Death in Naruto-
Kakashi's father was held back by his son but after reuiniting with Kakashi, he was able to 'move on' to reunite with his wife.

Guess which is preferable in the long run. . .

[Kabutomaru2]

mandara ran from the kages , cause he cant physically fight them.. Funny that the leader of the akatsuki is in fact at the moment the weakest..

[Konoha'sYellowFlash]

mandara ran from the kages , cause he cant physically fight them.. Funny that the leader of the akatsuki is in fact at the moment the weakest..

he isn't... he's the best space-time genjutsu user.. or was it ninjutsu??

[Smithy86]

the problem with madara is that he keeps saying himself that he lost to the 1st and that he's weaker now and i think he mentioned not being able to fight all the kages, etc

he's making himself sound like he isn't much of an invincible immortal.

i think the reason he's still alive was due to nagato's resurrection jutsu (since he said that nagato was supposed to use it for him)

so right now i think he can age to death.

as for his "ghostliness" i feel it drains a lot of chakra which is why he's avoiding fights, if he runs out then he's in some deep s*** <----just a guess though

with the infinite jyubi chakra we'll be close to a god without his current limitations

[kage bunshin no jutsu]

can you give the link please.... of madara being impaled by a katana

[ConquestAce]

All i can say too all of this is that ANYTHING IS FREAKING POSSIBLE IN NARUTO!!!!

for example pain reviving kakashi, choji growing wings and being able to fly and make his fist wieght more than life ( still dont get it) and much more just like bleach!

[handsomedevil911]

can you give the link please.... of madara being impaled by a katana

There's a link to it in the original theory post. He's definitely impaled by some kind of sword.

I have something to say on why I think Madara is still "alive". I think his original body died in the fight against Hashirama. However, I think Madara came up with a technique similar to Orochimaru's Immortality jutsu. However, Madara's technique doesn't put his soul into his victim's body.

His would involve genjutsu (tsukuyomi?). I think Madara's current body couldn't possibly be his original body. Madara could just use a genjutsu on someone to make sure his Moon's Eye Plan continues.

I'm probably way off in what will actually happen, but it almost makes sense. What do you guys think?

[onlyonepost097]

Maybe the phasing is as simple as switching dimensions. A similar dimension with different rules of physics. Depending on whose theory you follow about the ifinate number realities. One could have extremely slow moving time, another where skin is as hard as stone. Not that he goes to that reality , but that he temporarily overlaps that dimension over himself.

Now that my randomness seems a little closer to reality. I think the only way to defeat Madara is in his own dimension. I just hope that he doesn't become some type of god like entity in his special dimension. The only person I think that can kill him is an Uchiha with a eternal mangekyo sharingan with dimensional properties. Like Sasuke with Kakashi eye or vice versa. Either that or implanted sharingans gain that ability after the transplant.

[D.Hyuga]

Now that my randomness seems a little closer to reality. I think the only way to defeat Madara is in his own dimension. I just hope that he doesn't become some type of god like entity in his special dimension. The only person I think that can kill him is an Uchiha with a eternal mangekyo sharingan with dimensional properties. Like Sasuke with Kakashi eye or vice versa. Either that or implanted sharingans gain that ability after the transplant.

i am om the other hand thinking about kakashi using his kamui on madara,or better said on madara eye,madara would lose his space/time ability and then he would be easy target

[Jdblaze85]

[QUOTE=onlyonepost097;2748241]Now that my randomness seems a little closer to reality. I think the only way to defeat Madara is in his own dimension. I just hope that he doesn't become some type of god like entity in his special dimension. The only person I think that can kill him is an Uchiha with a eternal mangekyo sharingan with dimensional properties. Like Sasuke with Kakashi eye or vice versa. Either that or implanted sharingans gain that ability after the transplant.[/]

I'm a pretty open-minded individual but alternate dimension or alternate illusion? You see, I think you missed the entire point of the OP. I really don't think madara teleported sasuke and karin into an 'alternate reality.' What I believe happened is that he simply cast an illusion on the kage's to make it look like he made sasuke disappear while simultaneously casting it on him as well. (Hell, if he wants to put an illusion over everyone on the planet, a few kages and sasuke simultaneously at his current power level is not far fetched at all)

Once karin and sasuke were both under the illusion, they were basically in a tsukiyomi like genjutsu. Simple. They were still 'there' to the world, but the people who 'saw' them were put under an illusion that madara 'absorbed' them. He didn't really, they're just under genjutsu.

Like I said in the OP, the power to create illusions means you have to be VERY careful and VERY skeptical of what goes on when it involves those characters.

[D.Hyuga]

[QUOTE=onlyonepost097;2748241]Now that my randomness seems a little closer to reality. I think the only way to defeat Madara is in his own dimension. I just hope that he doesn't become some type of god like entity in his special dimension. The only person I think that can kill him is an Uchiha with a eternal mangekyo sharingan with dimensional properties. Like Sasuke with Kakashi eye or vice versa. Either that or implanted sharingans gain that ability after the transplant.[/]

I'm a pretty open-minded individual but alternate dimension or alternate illusion? You see, I think you missed the entire point of the OP. I really don't think madara teleported sasuke and karin into an 'alternate reality.' What I believe happened is that he simply cast an illusion on the kage's to make it look like he made sasuke disappear while simultaneously casting it on him as well. (Hell, if he wants to put an illusion over everyone on the planet, a few kages and sasuke simultaneously at his current power level is not far fetched at all)

Once karin and sasuke were both under the illusion, they were basically in a tsukiyomi like genjutsu. Simple. They were still 'there' to the world, but the people who 'saw' them were put under an illusion that madara 'absorbed' them. He didn't really, they're just under genjutsu.

Like I said in the OP, the power to create illusions means you have to be VERY careful and VERY skeptical of what goes on when it involves those characters.

nope he transfered them literally to another dimension(there are many dimensions in naruto world )

[Jdblaze85]

[QUOTE=Jdblaze85;2749612]

nope he transfered them literally to another dimension(there are many dimensions in naruto world )

I think you misunderstand genjutsu if you think illusions are capable of that. So you probably think sasuke was literally teleported into an alternate dimension when confronging orochimaru, don't you? That 'dimension' was not a dimension, just like where sasuke is now is not a dimension. It's simply a part of a genjutsu. You think sasuke literally vanished while being taken into orochimaru's mind? Of course he did not. Else, how would he get back?

Do you think kakashi was literally stabbed thousands of times in Itachi's tsukiyomi? Well, he wasn't. He never left where he stood.

Sasuke never left where he stood while facing orochimaru.
Sasuke did not get teleported into an 'alternate' dimension by madara.

I think you completely need to re-evaluate your understanding of genjutsu my friend.

P.S. There are no alternate dimensions in naruto. Unless you count being dead, then yes, I suppose once you are dead you are no longer among the living dimension.

[D.Hyuga]

[QUOTE=D.Hyuga;2749643]

I think you misunderstand genjutsu if you think illusions are capable of that. So you probably think sasuke was literally teleported into an alternate dimension when confronging orochimaru, don't you? That 'dimension' was not a dimension, just like where sasuke is now is not a dimension. It's simply a part of a genjutsu. You think sasuke literally vanished while being taken into orochimaru's mind? Of course he did not. Else, how would he get back?

Do you think kakashi was literally stabbed thousands of times in Itachi's tsukiyomi? Well, he wasn't. He never left where he stood.

Sasuke never left where he stood while facing orochimaru.
Sasuke did not get teleported into an 'alternate' dimension by madara.

I think you completely need to re-evaluate your understanding of genjutsu my friend.

P.S. There are no alternate dimensions in naruto. Unless you count being dead, then yes, I suppose once you are dead you are no longer among the living dimension.

you should learn a couple of things space/time jutsu is special type of NINJUSTU not genjutsu so don't mix that,since madara use space/time justu only similar jutsu to madara's is kakashi kamui(and don't tell me that kamui is genjutsu,that would be too much nonces for one day)

[Jdblaze85]

You can check your one-line responses to threads that contribute nothing to posts at the door son. Please go read the forum posting rules as this is largely against posting rules.

Space time ninjutsu is not what he used on sasuke as karin though, so your logic is very flawed. He used genjutsu on them, and the kages. He used his S/T ninjutsu to teleport to karin while talking with the kages.

I believe I've done my learning. And I don't spit nonsense. I read this forum avidly and hate little punks like you that post one-line responses inflating their post count to make them look like 'somebody.' I much rather appreciate people that can contribute things in a meaningful way. If you want 1-line responses to threads, go post in the chapter discussion threads where those are largely disregarded. Here, I won't tolerate this text-message style shenanigans. Reported and I do hope a moderator does something about it.

[GutsyNinja]

[QUOTE=onlyonepost097;2748241]Now that my randomness seems a little closer to reality. I think the only way to defeat Madara is in his own dimension. I just hope that he doesn't become some type of god like entity in his special dimension. The only person I think that can kill him is an Uchiha with a eternal mangekyo sharingan with dimensional properties. Like Sasuke with Kakashi eye or vice versa. Either that or implanted sharingans gain that ability after the transplant.[/]

I'm a pretty open-minded individual but alternate dimension or alternate illusion? You see, I think you missed the entire point of the OP. I really don't think madara teleported sasuke and karin into an 'alternate reality.' What I believe happened is that he simply cast an illusion on the kage's to make it look like he made sasuke disappear while simultaneously casting it on him as well. (Hell, if he wants to put an illusion over everyone on the planet, a few kages and sasuke simultaneously at his current power level is not far fetched at all)

Once karin and sasuke were both under the illusion, they were basically in a tsukiyomi like genjutsu. Simple. They were still 'there' to the world, but the people who 'saw' them were put under an illusion that madara 'absorbed' them. He didn't really, they're just under genjutsu.

Like I said in the OP, the power to create illusions means you have to be VERY careful and VERY skeptical of what goes on when it involves those characters.

I mean your theory sounds ok... but I doubt its a genjutsu...If that is the case then when he popped up in front of Kohona was a genjutsu, when he popped in front of Hawk was a genjutsu, when he showed up to the Kages were a genjutsu, Shoot anytime he "teleported"(by your theory) he used genjutsu and not only that but by your theory these are tsukiyomi "like".

Would this require more than a normal Sharigan. Isn't Sakura a genjutsu type? Would she have realised that? Would Kakashi? Wouldn't the Kages? Even Karin was like "Where are we" like they were in another world. Genjutsu .. I don't know bout that one.

Also in the Oro Sasuke fight... didn't Oro say this is My Dimension? Didn't Kohona even analyze Tobi's jutsu to be a spacetime/Jutsu... Just saying manga says one thing and then people come and say something completely different. Like I dont care what the manga say I say its this way... well ok

[Ken Masters]

You can check your one-line responses to threads that contribute nothing to posts at the door son. Please go read the forum posting rules as this is largely against posting rules.

Space time ninjutsu is not what he used on sasuke as karin though, so your logic is very flawed. He used genjutsu on them, and the kages. He used his S/T ninjutsu to teleport to karin while talking with the kages.

I believe I've done my learning. And I don't spit nonsense. I read this forum avidly and hate little punks like you that post one-line responses inflating their post count to make them look like 'somebody.' I much rather appreciate people that can contribute things in a meaningful way. If you want 1-line responses to threads, go post in the chapter discussion threads where those are largely disregarded. Here, I won't tolerate this text-message style shenanigans. Reported and I do hope a moderator does something about it.

Oh really? You reported him for that? Eunuch. I hate little punks like you who state theory like fact. You cannot prove anything you say, so you resort to reporting people who disagree with you?

I actually like your genjutsu THEORY, but I cannot stand the method you're using to force it down other's throats. You know NOTHING about the powers of the EMS. We DO know that Space/Time ninjutsu is one of the properties of the Mangekyou Sharingan, thanks to Kakashi's Kamui technique. We also know that the Sharingan techniques have similar properties, but may manifest differently, if at all, per user. You CANNOT say with any certainty that Madara did not use a Kamui technique to transport Karin and Sasuke to another location -- whether it's a another dimension or not, it makes no difference. You're using an unknown (whether or not there exists other "dimensions" in Naruto, a world that exists in a manga) to "prove" another unknown (your genjutsu theory, which is not a fact, no matter how much you bare your teeth). Your irrationality and belligerence only proves to me that your logic is flawed and your main OP theory is built upon sand.

Time travel? Really? While ANYTHING is possible in Kishi's world, I find that highly unlikely. I know that if I could control time, I would undo that which defeated me. Let me point out your logic failures:



Space-Time Ninjutsu. Kakashi says so himself the only way Tobi could have survived Shino's attack was a space-time ninjutsu of an unheard of level.

Thanks Captian Obvious, we know it was a space/time ninjutsu. He escaped the bugs by "teleporting" away. We all know that. It doesn't have anything to do with time travel. He just moved his body from point A to point B. Easy.

This is the only way Tobi could have survived Amaterasu. He certainly didn't Mangekyo-Sharingan the flames away. He went back in time before he was hit by the flames and then time traveled back to the present.

Teleportation applies to escaping Amaterasu as well. If Madara traveled back in time to before the Amaterasu flames hit him, where'd the flames go? Why wouldn't they also be with him when he went back? That theory would "work" if he stopped the trap from activating by making his former self keep his mask on. He didn't. He simply teleported away from the flames, leaving the flames with nothing to burn so they died out in mid-air (in the shadows where we can't see them). He then reappeared in another spot in the shadows and picked up his mask. Simple logical solution for a simple problem. This means that Itachi just didn't know about Madara's ultimate, Kamui-like, space/time ninjutsu.

This is also how I believe he survived the Valley of the End. He traveled to the future.

Madara escaped death by time-traveling to the future. It expalins why Itachi calls him a former shell of himself. Why? Because Hashirama did beat the living bjeezus out of him. (Probably why he only has one sharingan left too!) Time travel &/or teleportation also explains Madara's ability to move so quickly:


Yeah, maybe, but not likely. At least not in the way you're laying it out. You already pointed out that he may have used a highly-powered genjutsu to make it appear like he had died while he really made his escape. I agree. It would make sense that he escaped using his space/time ninjutsu while injured. However, that doesn't require time travel either. I don't know why you're insistent on shoehorning full-blown time travel into his space/time ninjutsu.

As for his slow aging, it would make sense that while in his "pocket dimension between space/time", time moves slower for him, while the world marches on. He may be able to spend as much time in there as his chakra will allow, and emerge several days (by the real world's perspective) or even months later. While moving forward in time would explain the appearance of immortality, the same effect can be achieved by slowing down his own personal space/time for extended periods. This way, he would appear to age slowly, but he would also be unable to affect the real world as he "skips" forward, thus history "forgetting" him.

Side note: This is not the same as "teleporting", which is just bending space/time. If true, I would guess that moving to a place "between" space/time is more taxing, requiring MS or EMS power, while teleporting is his normal Sharingan ability. Kakashi's weaker Kamui form is explainable by both the fact that Kakashi is not an Uchiha and that his jutsu is a long range version. Madara's is close range, though he can make up for it by teleporting to his target.

Frankly, most of your logic goes out the window the moment you realize that simply moving backward in time doesn't negate the damage done to the body doing the moving, while introducing so many fallacies it would be impossible to explain them all. The easiest is that Madara could only lose a battle if killed instantly, because otherwise he would simply jump back time in time and "undo" his loss. This is a problem in Heroes as well, which is why the writers had to find ways to limit Hiro and Peter; it was a flawed power to begin with. There's nothing wrong with teleporting and moving forward in time, however. No paradoxes can happen then.

In a nutshell, your entire argument and theory, while allowing for a fictional time travel scenario, has no room for the thought that this fictional world, that has already broken all known laws of physics, cannot possibly have other fictional "dimensions" in space/time. Nice reasoning there, genius.

Because you won't listen to anyone else, I'll repeat myself: By dimensions, I am referring to actual pockets of space (not some dream world created by genjutsu) outside the normal space/time continuum, where time passes at a different rate. This is NOT the same as "time travel", though it would appear that Madara skipped forward in time to everyone else. This is just as likely the correct scenario as anything else said in these forums. Feel free to try to disprove it with your flawed logic. I will sit back and laugh at your attempts.

Feel free to report me as well. My post is no more inflammatory than yours was to others.

[GutsyNinja]

:clap::clap::clap: Bravo sir Bravo... Actually well thought out input incomparison to the injected fantasy into fictional fact that was being argued on :clap::clap::clap:



Oh really? You reported him for that? Eunuch. I hate little punks like you who state theory like fact. You cannot prove anything you say, so you resort to reporting people who disagree with you?

I actually like your genjutsu THEORY, but I cannot stand the method you're using to force it down other's throats. You know NOTHING about the powers of the EMS. We DO know that Space/Time ninjutsu is one of the properties of the Mangekyou Sharingan, thanks to Kakashi's Kamui technique. We also know that the Sharingan techniques have similar properties, but may manifest differently, if at all, per user. You CANNOT say with any certainty that Madara did not use a Kamui technique to transport Karin and Sasuke to another location -- whether it's a another dimension or not, it makes no difference. You're using an unknown (whether or not there exists other "dimensions" in Naruto, a world that exists in a manga) to "prove" another unknown (your genjutsu theory, which is not a fact, no matter how much you bare your teeth). Your irrationality and belligerence only proves to me that your logic is flawed and your main OP theory is built upon sand.

Time travel? Really? While ANYTHING is possible in Kishi's world, I find that highly unlikely. I know that if I could control time, I would undo that which defeated me. Let me point out your logic failures:





Thanks Captian Obvious, we know it was a space/time ninjutsu. He escaped the bugs by "teleporting" away. We all know that. It doesn't have anything to do with time travel. He just moved his body from point A to point B. Easy.



Teleportation applies to escaping Amaterasu as well. If Madara traveled back in time to before the Amaterasu flames hit him, where'd the flames go? Why wouldn't they also be with him when he went back? That theory would "work" if he stopped the trap from activating by making his former self keep his mask on. He didn't. He simply teleported away from the flames, leaving the flames with nothing to burn so they died out in mid-air (in the shadows where we can't see them). He then reappeared in another spot in the shadows and picked up his mask. Simple logical solution for a simple problem. This means that Itachi just didn't know about Madara's ultimate, Kamui-like, space/time ninjutsu.



Yeah, maybe, but not likely. At least not in the way you're laying it out. You already pointed out that he may have used a highly-powered genjutsu to make it appear like he had died while he really made his escape. I agree. It would make sense that he escaped using his space/time ninjutsu while injured. However, that doesn't require time travel either. I don't know why you're insistent on shoehorning full-blown time travel into his space/time ninjutsu.

As for his slow aging, it would make sense that while in his "pocket dimension between space/time", time moves slower for him, while the world marches on. He may be able to spend as much time in there as his chakra will allow, and emerge several days (by the real world's perspective) or even months later. While moving forward in time would explain the appearance of immortality, the same effect can be achieved by slowing down his own personal space/time for extended periods. This way, he would appear to age slowly, but he would also be unable to affect the real world as he "skips" forward, thus history "forgetting" him.

Side note: This is not the same as "teleporting", which is just bending space/time. If true, I would guess that moving to a place "between" space/time is more taxing, requiring MS or EMS power, while teleporting is his normal Sharingan ability. Kakashi's weaker Kamui form is explainable by both the fact that Kakashi is not an Uchiha and that his jutsu is a long range version. Madara's is close range, though he can make up for it by teleporting to his target.

Frankly, most of your logic goes out the window the moment you realize that simply moving backward in time doesn't negate the damage done to the body doing the moving, while introducing so many fallacies it would be impossible to explain them all. The easiest is that Madara could only lose a battle if killed instantly, because otherwise he would simply jump back time in time and "undo" his loss. This is a problem in Heroes as well, which is why the writers had to find ways to limit Hiro and Peter; it was a flawed power to begin with. There's nothing wrong with teleporting and moving forward in time, however. No paradoxes can happen then.

In a nutshell, your entire argument and theory, while allowing for a fictional time travel scenario, has no room for the thought that this fictional world, that has already broken all known laws of physics, cannot possibly have other fictional "dimensions" in space/time. Nice reasoning there, genius.

Because you won't listen to anyone else, I'll repeat myself: By dimensions, I am referring to actual pockets of space (not some dream world created by genjutsu) outside the normal space/time continuum, where time passes at a different rate. This is NOT the same as "time travel", though it would appear that Madara skipped forward in time to everyone else. This is just as likely the correct scenario as anything else said in these forums. Feel free to try to disprove it with your flawed logic. I will sit back and laugh at your attempts.

Feel free to report me as well. My post is no more inflammatory than yours was to others.

[crimsonrose]

This theory also explains Madara's age very well... Instead of living one and a half centuries it sounds better just to say he went to the future... Meaning the guy is not old... Physically :D

Great! That explained alot to me! I bet Jdblaze85 is Masashi Kishimoto in disguise! xD

[bethazer]

I think personally, that he is using an ability like Orichimaru, heck, likly taught him his, but not a perfect form.

[D.Hyuga]

I think personally, that he is using an ability like Orichimaru, heck, likly taught him his, but not a perfect form.

he wouldn't look like a grumpy old man when tried to show himself to sasu he looked very old(the part of face we have seen)

[moep]

You can check your one-line responses to threads that contribute nothing to posts at the door son. Please go read the forum posting rules as this is largely against posting rules.

Space time ninjutsu is not what he used on sasuke as karin though, so your logic is very flawed. He used genjutsu on them, and the kages. He used his S/T ninjutsu to teleport to karin while talking with the kages.

I believe I've done my learning. And I don't spit nonsense. I read this forum avidly and hate little punks like you that post one-line responses inflating their post count to make them look like 'somebody.' I much rather appreciate people that can contribute things in a meaningful way. If you want 1-line responses to threads, go post in the chapter discussion threads where those are largely disregarded. Here, I won't tolerate this text-message style shenanigans. Reported and I do hope a moderator does something about it.

how about giving some proof for that??
you just state madara uses genjutsu on sasuke/karin and the kages as a fact but provide NOTHING to back it up, you simply just assume that.
and on top of that you go on and report people that dont agree with you??
well, thats at least.....CHEAP! (no seriously: this is just an evidence of incapacity)

and besides: if there are no other dimensions in naruto then where did deidaras upper part of his arm and the explosion caused by him disappear to after kakashi used his kumui? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/276/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/278/05/
did he trap it in genjutsu or what is your explanation for that? sent it to the future/past?!

now go on and report me too because since i disagree with you i got to be trying to increase my tremendous amount of post counts.........

[D.Hyuga]

how about giving some proof for that??
you just state madara uses genjutsu on sasuke/karin and the kages as a fact but provide NOTHING to back it up, you simply just assume that.
and on top of that you go on and report people that dont agree with you??
well, thats at least.....CHEAP! (no seriously: this is just an evidence of incapacity)

and besides: if there are no other dimensions in naruto then where did deidaras upper part of his arm and the explosion caused by him disappear to after kakashi used his kumui? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/276/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/278/05/
did he trap it in genjutsu or what is your explanation for that? sent it to the future/past?!

now go on and report me too because since i disagree with you i got to be trying to increase my tremendous amount of post counts.........

hahaha deidara then had 3 arms and didn't knew that,and madara ...etc poor deidara
btw don't waste time on people like him he is more for this kind of reaction
:wth3:

[Xelagash]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/14/

That right there pretty much proves teleportation because it is not just Kakashis guess anymore but Sasuke actually doing it as well.

Also, if you look at
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/280/19/
There are somethings shown down his side. These could just be some sort of button design, but to me they look like some sort of bolts in him. The only explanation for these that I can come up with would be him being some sort of puppet like Sasori. This would both explain his immortality (not having a human body means he doesnt age) and how he can take a sword to the arm without worry. Also we can take away the idea of phasing his body and go with the idea of him teleporting part of his body away then bringing it back. If he is a puppet, then removing pieces and putting them back would be simple right?

My only problem with this theory is that I dont think Kishi would really make another puppet person like Sasori. One is enough right? I also want to say that seeing part of his face also slightly disproves this theory but it doesnt. We saw only a small part and it was dark at the time because they were in a small cave. Also Sasori looked human from just his face too. That plus the fact that Madara showed Sasuke while looking right at him with his sharingan could make the whole thing genjutsu.

The truth of the matter is that their really is no way to be certain. Hell for all we know Toby could really be some random guy who somehow revived Madara, stole his eye, and is now lying about who he really is to sound powerful.

I'm still sticking with my original theory. Everything in the universe is all just one big Genjutsu created by Sasuke in Narutos mind as he was crying their on the swing after failing the original exam to become a ninja.

[D.Hyuga]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/14/

That right there pretty much proves teleportation because it is not just Kakashis guess anymore but Sasuke actually doing it as well.

Also, if you look at
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/280/19/
There are somethings shown down his side. These could just be some sort of button design, but to me they look like some sort of bolts in him. The only explanation for these that I can come up with would be him being some sort of puppet like Sasori. This would both explain his immortality (not having a human body means he doesnt age) and how he can take a sword to the arm without worry. Also we can take away the idea of phasing his body and go with the idea of him teleporting part of his body away then bringing it back. If he is a puppet, then removing pieces and putting them back would be simple right?

My only problem with this theory is that I dont think Kishi would really make another puppet person like Sasori. One is enough right? I also want to say that seeing part of his face also slightly disproves this theory but it doesnt. We saw only a small part and it was dark at the time because they were in a small cave. Also Sasori looked human from just his face too. That plus the fact that Madara showed Sasuke while looking right at him with his sharingan could make the whole thing genjutsu.

The truth of the matter is that their really is no way to be certain. Hell for all we know Toby could really be some random guy who somehow revived Madara, stole his eye, and is now lying about who he really is to sound powerful.

I'm still sticking with my original theory. Everything in the universe is all just one big Genjutsu created by Sasuke in Narutos mind as he was crying their on the swing after failing the original exam to become a ninja.

hey i din't noticed this before and it looks more like EYES then bolts(as you said it would be stupid to have puppet again and we have seen pain having piercing)
but then again it could be that madara needed spare parts after battle with 1st

[Riwer7]

perhaps madara is pure chakra creature and those armored bands with pins serve to keep him solid or help him shift chakra around in order to evade harm(seeing that all attacks seem to go straight trough him)...and he probably is not immortal just very hard to harm and with good genjutsu skills it may seem like to everybody who fought him...

[moep]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/14/

That right there pretty much proves teleportation because it is not just Kakashis guess anymore but Sasuke actually doing it as well.



i always thought that it actually was manda under sasukes genjutsu that teleported himself with sasuke inside to the dimension where these animals are summoned from.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/10/
here suigetsu summons manda (with sasuke inside).
if it was sasuke who used teleportation he could have simply teleported back by himself and not via summoning of manda.
or whatelse would be the need for the summoning?

[Datel]

Well i think his power is very equal to the magekyo sharingan power kakashi used against deidara!
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/09/
Imagine instead of using it to destroy using it to travel to diferent places almost like a black hole in space. Kakashi used it and deidara's arm was sent to a random place in the forest, but imagine that madara perfected this jutsu and created a safe place like that one shown on the manga. that can explain somethings

[D.Hyuga]

Well i think his power is very equal to the magekyo sharingan power kakashi used against deidara!
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/09/
Imagine instead of using it to destroy using it to travel to diferent places almost like a black hole in space. Kakashi used it and deidara's arm was sent to a random place in the forest, but imagine that madara perfected this jutsu and created a safe place like that one shown on the manga. that can explain somethings

i think that we ll see kakashi making his kamui more advanced more closer to what madara can do,since kakashi had opportunity so watch madara jutsu for a couple of times already and i think it will go same as with ms 1. seeing itachi using it and after some time kakashi showed out that he learned ms after just one experience of ms

[tic tac toe]

hmm, yes. although i don't believe that madara was invincible to begin with, just really hard to kill.

[ravaha]

(You may skip this first part to proceed directly to theory)

A little back-story about how my train-of-thought arrived on this theory. I was thinking about what type of power gives manga-writers and television writers the most liberty. I looked at bleach, naruto and the TV series heroes. Both in naruto and bleach illusion powers are prominent. (Aizen in bleach, Uchiha in Naruto) What illusion powers do is allow manga writers the ability to create what I call "Fake frames." Fake frames are frames that we presently believe to be correct, but are not. An example of a fake frame:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/01/ (Top box)

Itachi wasn't really stabbed by sasuke, it was an illusion. The creation of fake frames allows writers to spontaneously change reality.

Next, on to heroes. I was looking at two powers from this show. Namely, teleportation and time travel. With those two powers combined it gives the writers of that television show the liberty to change their entire universe every season if they so see fit.

And then I realized why and more importantly how Madara Uchiha was alive.

****THEORY SECTION****

Madara did not die at the valley of the end.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/12/

This page is central to my theory. Read it. Twice. Namely the two middle pannels.

Madara, "I died there... or so they thought. Even Hashirama thought so. I was forgotten by everyone, even history."

So, what happened to Madara? There are clues given to how he lived from earlier chapters in the manga:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/10/

Space-Time Ninjutsu. Kakashi says so himself the only way Tobi could have survived Shino's attack was a space-time ninjutsu of an unheard of level. This is the only way Tobi could have survived Amaterasu. He certainly didn't Mangekyo-Sharingan the flames away. He went back in time before he was hit by the flames and then time traveled back to the present. This is also how I believe he survived the Valley of the End. He traveled to the future.

Madara escaped death by time-traveling to the future. It expalins why Itachi calls him a former shell of himself. Why? Because Hashirama did beat the living bjeezus out of him. (Probably why he only has one sharingan left too!) Time travel &/or teleportation also explains Madara's ability to move so quickly:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/07/

So Madara's claim that he was forgotten by history makes a bit more sense now too. He wasn't forgotten because people assumed him dead. He was forgotten because he was no longer apart of history having removed himself from it and placed himself in the future. Tying back to my initial thoughts about super-powers and giving the writers great amounts of liberty. Combining both time travel + illusion basically lets the writers have the most liberty to create whatever they want to create. If something isn't going the way they like - they just go back in time and change it. Or, in Madara's case, you go to the future when the person who nearly killed you is no longer alive and exact your revenge on the village that had forsaken you. Now that the man who controls Bijuu is no longer among the living; Madara is free to assemble the greatest chakra weapon ever created and eliminate Konohagakure once and for all.

What are your thoughts OM community? Do you believe Madara is amongst the living because of time travel as well? Or do you believe something far more sinister is afoot? Feel free to discuss!

Thanks for your time.

-Jdblaze
Madara lived because he used inazagi and sacrificed his eye, plain and simple.

[Masamune]

Madara lived because he used inazagi and sacrificed his eye, plain and simple.

That's not confirmed. And even if it were, it does not explain how he has lived for so long.

[Sasuke48]

Madara lived because he used inazagi and sacrificed his eye, plain and simple.

That actually makes ligitimate sense. :eek: though unlike Danzo, I don't think Madara would be stupid enough to sacrifice one of his eyes like that, this manga has shown that a few swords through the stomach and depleted chakra woundn't kill you :cool:

[Deemo]

I used to think he used Izanagi as well but it still didn't answer how he has been alive for so long so I dropped it lol

[Jebus]

That's not confirmed. And even if it were, it does not explain how he has lived for so long.

madara could have use izanga to make him self a baby in order to live longer and avoid the death frist hokage did to him.

[Sasuke48]

madara could have use izanga to make him self a baby in order to live longer and avoid the death frist hokage did to him.

......:wth3: how does that make any sense all? How would turning himself into a child pervent his death by the Hokage? :confused:

[Masamune]

madara could have use izanga to make him self a baby in order to live longer and avoid the death frist hokage did to him.

Izanagi does not work that way....

[riku65]

I think he used Izanagi to cheat death. The visible eye we see is a transplanted sharingan. I think transplanted sharingans give time-space jutsu. He doesn't have an original pair of mangekyou so I don't think he can use susanoo either.

[Nekron]

Madara could have used Izanagi to survive. It makes sense. But, other than the hidden eye, there's no supporting evidence for that being the case as opposed to a simple illusion. Except, plotwise, it's the perfect thing to do.

So why bother introducing Izanagi as opposed to illusions?

More sharingan evolution. Yes, indeed.

*****THEORY*******

An eye that goes blind as a result of MS overuse can be given an eternal MS by implanting a clansman's eye. Therefore, logic dictates that an eye gone blind as a result of Izanagi can be given an eternal Izanagi by transplanting a clansman's eye. This might be what Madara did, and thus his immortality.

Also, an eternal Izanagi combined with an EMS could create more new jutsus. Like, say, the ability to create illusions with Tsukuyomi and then make them real with Izanagi.

*****THEORY DONE NOW.*******

It's probably dumb and wrong, but it would explain some stuff, and the level of sharingan hax fits in with what we've seen so far. Also, the "making illusions real" thing could let Madara create an entire army of tanks.

[BringerofPlagues]

Inb4tl?

[Masamune]

Izanagi does not grant immortality.

[Nekron]

Izanagi does not grant immortality.

If you turn your aging into an illusion somehow, I see no reason why it couldn't. For example, if he rejuvenated the dying cells in his body, it could work. Just saying, if Kishi wanted that to happen, he could.

[Masamune]

It turns your moment of death into an illusion for a mere moment. It doesn't halt your aging.

[riku65]

The tsuchikage fought madara back then and he still can fight given his age so it still makes sense that Madara is old as hell.

[Nekron]

It turns your moment of death into an illusion for a mere moment. It doesn't halt your aging.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/04/

In other words, "realities" can become "illusions" and "illusions" transformed into "realities".

So, perhaps he could remove his aged and dying cells and replace them with young vital ones. Or he might be able to remove a few years from himself every now and then.

[riku65]

Or he's just old and can't fight like he used to which is why he said he's just a shell of his former self.

[Nekron]

Or he's just old and can't fight like he used to which is why he said he's just a shell of his former self.

Um no. Remember, he was at least 20, probably more like 40 when he and the first hokage fought. It's been about a hundred years since then. He couldn't fight at all if he were that old. Either time-travel or some form of immortality has to be in play here.

[titantron91]

Izanagi does not grant immortality.

Yep

Izanagi make someone literally "unreal" for a small amount of time until the user's Sharingan eye closes.

Madara said his own strong chakra made him immortal... he may even have slowed aging. He still has black hair and a glimpse of his face shows that he kinda looks like Danzo, and Danzo's 72.

[Masamune]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/04/

In other words, "realities" can become "illusions" and "illusions" transformed into "realities".

So, perhaps he could remove his aged and dying cells and replace them with young vital ones. Or he might be able to remove a few years from himself every now and then.

Like it said in the manga, Izanagi can control the boundary between reality and illusions. Never said anything about making them absolute. Furthermore, Izanagi is a Genjutsu, an illusion. Were it to actually "rejuvenate" a person, it wouldn't be classified as one. As Madara mentioned, it only lasts for so long. So, whatever effects it does have, they're only temporary.

[Madara0wnsU]

Like it said in the manga, Izanagi can control the boundary between reality and illusions. Never said anything about making them absolute. Furthermore, Izanagi is a Genjutsu, an illusion. Were it to actually "rejuvenate" a person, it wouldn't be classified as one. As Madara mentioned, it only lasts for so long. So, whatever effects it does have, they're only temporary.

The effects are permanent. Using Izanagi is temporary.

[JSmith]

Dunno if someone already posted this (EDIT: titantron91 just did, while I was writing, hahah), but

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/

Madara implies he has lived this long because he has a very strong chakra.

I checked here in case something got lost in translation, and another scan would say something different:

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-398/page018.html

And over there Madara says something different: "refusal to die". I dunno the original Japanese script but whether he has refused to die or he has lived for very long naturally, both translations point out that the reason behind his longevity is his strong chakra. Now, he might be lying to Sasuke to avoid having him figure out some sort of EMS secret in case he'd decide to take Itachi's eyes, but there might be some truth behind what he said.

On this page, Itachi says something regarding immortality:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/11/

On that chapter he implies that by taking Sasuke's eyes he will achieve immortality. Of course, we all know he was deceiving Sasuke all along, with some true statements here and there, but he might have said that to further fuel Sasuke into killing him.

[Ziv@n]

just want to correct some previous postes.there are more dimensions in naruto.for example that place where naruto trained for sage mode

[Masamune]

The effects are permanent. Using Izanagi is temporary.

The effects are temporary. The affects, like avoiding death for an instant, are permanent ( or something like that).

[boyinblue]

Like it said in the manga, Izanagi can control the boundary between reality and illusions. Never said anything about making them absolute. Furthermore, Izanagi is a Genjutsu, an illusion. Were it to actually "rejuvenate" a person, it wouldn't be classified as one. As Madara mentioned, it only lasts for so long. So, whatever effects it does have, they're only temporary.

The effects are absolute. It is the ultimate genjutsu. Izanagi's usage is temporary because of the amount of chakra and it's requirement, or the sacrificial offering(sharingan).

[Ziv@n]

just want to correct some previous poster.there are more dimensions in naruto.for example that place where naruto trained for sage mode

[titantron91]

just want to correct some previous poster.there are more dimensions in naruto.for example that place where naruto trained for sage mode

Mt. Myoboku? I think that's another place in Naruto lands.

[JSmith]

Mt. Myoboku? I think that's another place in Naruto lands.

yep, when naruto crossed the village exit, thinking they would travel to myouboku (spelling?) by foot, fukasaku himself said that it would take one month to get there by foot

[Ziv@n]

i think when jiraya explained about summoning jutsu he stated that the creatures are summoned from another dimension

[Nekron]

The effects are temporary. The affects, like avoiding death for an instant, are permanent ( or something like that).

I don't think you have the meanings right there. Besides, if a more powerful eternal Izanagi could create things out of illusions by making them real, then he could make them and they would indeed exist permanently. And on the other side, if he could remove "time" from his body, then that effect would also be permanent.

[JSmith]

i think when jiraya explained about summoning jutsu he stated that the creatures are summoned from another dimension

plot-hole no jutsu <.<

[Nekron]

Summoning is a reversed teleportation jutsu. It's used to bring the summoned animals from wherever they are in the world to that location. They're not coming from an alternate dimension.

EDIT: And remember, teleportation is just a form of high-speed movement. That's pretty much all summoning is.

[boyinblue]

i think when jiraya explained about summoning jutsu he stated that the creatures are summoned from another dimension

If that were true then how would they reach it by foot? I was under the assumption that the actual summoning is what can be viewed as dimensional warping.

[abacadaba1]

The effects are absolute. It is the ultimate genjutsu. Izanagi's usage is temporary because of the amount of chakra and it's requirement, or the sacrificial offering(sharingan).

You are right now madara has a bunch of eyes and a very big chakra combine that with izangi is immorality

[abacadaba1]

Summoning is a reversed teleportation jutsu. It's used to bring the summoned animals from wherever they are in the world to that location. They're not coming from an alternate dimension.

EDIT: And remember, teleportation is just a form of high-speed movement. That's pretty much all summoning is.

WRONG

teleportation is high speed movement

BUT

summoning jutsu is TRANSPORTATION = TIME SPACE JUTSU

[Nekron]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/92/14/

I was quite wrong. However, they still come from this world, not another dimension.

[Jebus]

ok lets get some things stright.
For a beif secound izangi make reality an ilusion and an ilusion realty. So for a breif secound or two if the user of the izangi thinks become reality in a cost of losting of there eye.

So basically for a beif secound the user become a god in cheating death. If old age was the casue of death the user could think of being younger and then cheat death in the cost of there eyes.

I think that is simple to understand. THe whole time-space justu he could of learn after seeing minato use it or firgure it out himself.

[Nekron]

I believe the fact that Izanagi could grant immortality has been fairly well-proven. It is both plausible and plot-appropriate. Now the second, and weirder, part of my theory: The eternal Izanagi. If an eye blinded by the MS gains EMS when a new eye is implanted, shouldn't an eye blinded by Izanagi gain an eternal Izanagi eye when a new eye is implanted?

[Masamune]

I believe the fact that Izanagi could grant immortality has been fairly well-proven. It is both plausible and plot-appropriate. Now the second, and weirder, part of my theory: The eternal Izanagi. If an eye blinded by the MS gains EMS when a new eye is implanted, shouldn't an eye blinded by Izanagi gain an eternal Izanagi eye when a new eye is implanted?

Whether EMS removes blindness resulting from any occurrence or specifically the blindness resulting from the usage of MS would be the central issue.

[Nekron]

Whether EMS removes blindness resulting from any occurrence or specifically the blindness resulting from the usage of MS would be the central issue.

An excellent point. But, if an eternal Izanagi can really be obtained, it would be exactly the kind of perfect plot armor that kishi loves to give to sharingans.

[Madara0wnsU]

An excellent point. But, if an eternal Izanagi can really be obtained, it would be exactly the kind of perfect plot armor that kishi loves to give to sharingans.

I think Madara's plan is to have a world of Eternal Izanagi/Genjutsu. Were he can control everything, obviously.

[Xeorr]

Madara survived VOTE because he used Inazaghi, thats pretty much what we can deduce from the cost on Inazaghi, and thats why one mask hole is covered up.

[Jdblaze85]

Izangi explains how Madara could have survived the 1sts fatal attacks on him.

What it doesn't explain is how Madara is still "Alive" after all these years.

[linkinlovprk]

We know that Madara/Tobi's arm used to show that there were bolts and such in his arm, could it be possible that he has tons of sharingans in that arm like Danzo?...It would explain his oldness and his ability to phase as he pleases, seeing as he has tons of sharingans just chillen.. With the ammount of sharingans he seems to have, and the fact that the sharingan is supposed to be a rare find in an Uchiha..

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/12/08/

Unless thats a plothole... Sorry if any of this has been mentioned, im still new here ^_^

[Masamune]

We know that Madara/Tobi's arm used to show that there were bolts and such in his arm, could it be possible that he has tons of sharingans in that arm like Danzo?...It would explain his oldness and his ability to phase as he pleases, seeing as he has tons of sharingans just chillen.. With the ammount of sharingans he seems to have, and the fact that the sharingan is supposed to be a rare find in an Uchiha..

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/12/08/

Unless thats a plothole... Sorry if any of this has been mentioned, im still new here ^_^

Where was this?

[linkinlovprk]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/280/19/

They look like bolts at least to me.

[Rychan]

Madara survived VOTE because he used Inazaghi, thats pretty much what we can deduce from the cost on Inazaghi, and thats why one mask hole is covered up.

or , maybe he just doesnt want to use that much chakra when he only needs 1 eye . using both would be a greater drain on chakra esp if he really doesnt need to use it.

remember, madara has been collecting sharingans.. so it would make alot of sense if he still had two eyes even if one was removed by izanagi. he could replace one of his eyes with itachis if he wanted to. (unless he is not compatible)

[Masamune]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/280/19/

They look like bolts at least to me.

Bolts? Yes. But it looks like he's wearing armor, linked by the bolts.

[linkinlovprk]

Bolts? Yes. But it looks like he's wearing armor, linked by the bolts.

You win this time Masumune hahaha... but you can't deny the ammount of sharingans is unbelievable since the sharingan was considered rare, and with so many he could use Izangi to phase through space since illusions become a reality.

[trapped]

Whether EMS removes blindness resulting from any occurrence or specifically the blindness resulting from the usage of MS would be the central issue.
The after effects of Izanagi were described as the eye being closed forever, not blindness.

[Masamune]

The after effects of Izanagi were described as the eye being closed forever, not blindness.

Then the answer to this discussion is no.

[hamidmosavib]

i agree with you!
i think we are tired of OR and old chars we need new ones!
http://dragcave.net/image/72jb.gif (http://dragcave.net/view/72jb)
http://dragcave.net/image/PmSB.gif (http://dragcave.net/view/PmSB)
http://dragcave.net/image/TAUn.gif (http://dragcave.net/view/TAUn)

[naruto89]

Ok since there seems to be alot of speculations based on facts i'll give you mine.

First of all about Madara's powers:
Madara has a phase techique and an occular space/time technique.
They are 2 separate techniques as we can see here:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/475/04/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/475/06/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/475/09/

This technique is his phase technique.
We know that cause his body doesn't dissappear when objects go through him.
Also if he was using his time/space jutsu we would see the warping effect coming from his eye.

Now his other ability,the time/space jutsu,is an occular power for sure.
We can see that every time he uses it the warp that teleports the objects in another dimension is centered in his right eye:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/453/01/

Iam pretty sure it's not a time travel technique just teleportation in any place of the original dimension of Narutoverse and at least one other:

http://forum.onemanga.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=26577

Let's remember when Madara said that he needed Nagato to use his Rinne Tensei on him:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/453/18/

So that means that he isn't exactly alive but somewhere between life and death.
Also he could have asked Nagato to use his Rinne Tensei from the moment he began to manipulate him but he didn't,why?
Because he wanted to stay in that state until his eye of the moon plan carried away.
Because in this state he is immortal and not by choice.(i'll explain later)
We see that right after Nagato's death he decides to implement his plan.
Why should he rush?The man who spent years plotting and sceming,why should he rush now?
Because Nagato was no longer alive and he couldn't use Rinne Tensei on him.

My theory/speculation about Madara's immortality is based on his current abilities and his defeat from Hashirama.
To explain my theory i have to give a possible scenario of Madara's defeat but still alive situation.

I believe Madara used Izanagi to escape death thus wasting his left eye.
I don't believe Madara has a left eye under the mask.
The reasons are:

1.There's no need for him to hide it if he had one.

2.Also his eye wasn't simply wounded so he lost it otherwise he would just trasplant one of the numerous sharingans he keeps in his lab-store.So the eye has closed and can never be opened again.
(I believe Izanagi destroys the ability to maintain a sharingan in the eyehole)

After managing to trick everyone that he died he goes into hiding.
But he knows although everyone think he's dead that he is known criminal and he can't risk show his face again until the world forgets him and Hashirama the man who beat him dies.
At that time he discovers his time/space jutsu(it's an one-eye technique)
and teleports himself to that dimension.
(That dimension=the dimension where he teleported Sasuke and Karin)
He decides that hiding in there until Hashirama dies and the world no longer remembers him is the best course of action.
So he spents his time in that dimension coming out in the real world only to learn news.
As he is not aging he understands that time doesn't pass by in that dimension.
When Hashirama dies or some time after that Madara comes back and assumes the identity of Tobi.
We haven't got proof of Madara's presense for the years after his ''death''.
So it's a plausible scenario.
But after spending so much time in that dimension and teleporting in and out of it his body started phading-phasing when he was in the real world.
He manages to control it but still any time he spents in the real world he is aging.
So Madara's immortality is based on the sharingan dimension lack of time.

Also now that he no longer has Nagato to use Rinne Tensei on him he knows he only has one sharingan,his right.
With that he can use the time/space jutsu and tsukuyomi.
We've seen him use the time/space jutsu and we know he could use tsukuyomi 16 years ago when he controlled the fox to attack konoha and he said that he will cast mugen tsukuyomi on the moon if/when he becomes the juubi jinchuuriki.

So i just started to write what was i thinking about Madara's immortality but i got carried away and that's why it's a bit confusing.I know it seems like fanfic.
Also i know it's just a speculation but some of them are valid points and some other fit well in the timeline.
Anyway i think i have left some things out too but i can't think straight now.
So read and correct me where needed.
If nothing else you will come with some ideas of your own.
Sorry for the long post.
Thank you in advance!!!

[Masamune]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Madara's S/T jutsu is a doujutsu just yet.
Lets leave it out there for later.

Also, Rinne Tensei wouldn't be any use to Madara himself. It essentially revives the dead, which he is far from. What I do believe he needed it for was to revive the Juubi since it were the rikudou sennin's power that separated it's chakra and sealed it away.

[Dodecahedron]

I like the thought of no time in Madara's dimension, it sounds very plausible... :thumbsup:

I'll throw in a random thought that's been floating around my mind about the Rinne Tensei stuff though... What if Madara didn't want it for himself, but for his brother?

He took his eyes to get the Uchiha clan an edge against the Senju, but then they signed a peace treaty, making Izuna's death meaningless... That's what Madara's revenge is all about, so I think it's safe to say he loved his brother (even if he might be lying about Izuna giving him his eyes willingly).

Maybe he wanted to carry out his revenge, and then bring Izuna back to life in his new, perfect world? I think that would add another layer to his character and mirror the Sasuke/Itachi business nicely...

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Madara's S/T jutsu is a doujutsu just yet.
Lets leave it out there for later.

Why not? It seems to be essentially the same as Kakashi's kamui, so it would make sense that it's a one-eyed doujutsu, since neither Sasuke or Itachi has/had it.

[Masamune]

Why not? It seems to be essentially the same as Kakashi's kamui, so it would make sense that it's a one-eyed doujutsu, since neither Sasuke or Itachi has/had it.

The are distinct differences between Kamui and Madara's jutsu. Kamui was said to be an original jutsu also. And because Sasuke nor Itachi had the same jutsu as Madara doesn't make it a doujutsu.

[naruto89]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Madara's S/T jutsu is a doujutsu just yet.
Lets leave it out there for later.

Also, Rinne Tensei wouldn't be any use to Madara himself. It essentially revives the dead, which he is far from. What I do believe he needed it for was to revive the Juubi since it were the rikudou sennin's power that separated it's chakra and sealed it away.

I didn't jump to that coclusion.
What are the odds of his space/time jutsu not being an occular power since the warping always starts from fim mask and specifically as we've seen from his right eye?
I think we can be pretty sure that it's a doujutsu.

As for the Rinne Tensei being needed for the revival of the juubi,though a good idea,i don't think it's true.
If that was the case then the juubi can no longer be revived as the only Rinnegan user is dead.
Also i explained in what state ibelieve Madara is.
I believe he needed Nagato's Rinne Tensei to restore his eye and body from the effects of Izanagi and his long stay at the Sharingan dimension.
(read my post above)


What if Madara didn't want it for himself, but for his brother?

That can't be done as Rinne Tensei can revive the dead only short after their death.

The are distinct differences between Kamui and Madara's jutsu. Kamui was said to be an original jutsu also. And because Sasuke nor Itachi had the same jutsu as Madara doesn't make it a doujutsu.


I know there are distinct differences i have written some posts about it too.
But they are both doujutsus,they are cast from the eye.
That's what a doujutsu is.

[Dodecahedron]

That can't be done as Rinne Tensei can revive the dead only short after their death.

Do we really know that? I reread the part where Nagato used it today, but all I found was this: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/09/

It could mean anything from the bodies still not being decomposed to Nagato still being alive and having enough chakra to perform the technique, IMO... I have no idea what the databooks say, though...

[naruto89]

Do we really know that? I reread the part where Nagato used it today, but all I found was this: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/09/

It could mean anything from the bodies still not being decomposed to Nagato still being alive and having enough chakra to perform the technique, IMO... I have no idea what the databooks say, though...


If it was possible he would have revived Yahiko.
Also if it's a matter of decomposure then it's impossible too.
Izuna died long before Madara even learns about Rinnegan.
His body has already turn to dust.
Also Madara is too tainted with world domination and revenge.
He doesn't even think he did something bad when he took his brothers eyes,thus killing him.
I don't think he wants to revive any Uchiha much less his brother.

[Dodecahedron]

Yeah, you're probably right... good point about Yahiko! I also found some sources claiming Rinne Tensei would only work on people Nagato had recently killed. I'm gonna drop this :)

[jle1076]

What about the theory of it being Obito? Same goofyness, same hair, and only his right Sharingan (and maybe theres someone that saved his body) also, Kakashis Mangekyuo has sort of the same ability tobi does on a much smaller scale ( Being only one eye and not being double mangekyuo)

[Nekron]

What about the theory of it being Obito? Same goofyness, same hair, and only his right Sharingan (and maybe theres someone that saved his body) also, Kakashis Mangekyuo has sort of the same ability tobi does on a much smaller scale ( Being only one eye and not being double mangekyuo)

As per your last point: It has been implied (by Itachi) that the time-space MS jutsu results from implanting another eye.

[Masamune]

As per your last point: It has been implied (by Itachi) that the time-space MS jutsu results from implanting another eye.

When did he imply that?

[Nekron]

When did he imply that?

http://beta.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/

"New eye technique". Unless there is yet another hidden doujutsu for the MS, and Kakashi and Madara both just happened to develop a time-space MS jutsu that none of the other MS users have, it is both reasonable and logical to conclude that that would be the warping ability.

[Masamune]

http://beta.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/

"New eye technique". Unless there is yet another hidden doujutsu for the MS, and Kakashi and Madara both just happened to develop a time-space MS jutsu that none of the other MS users have, it is both reasonable and logical to conclude that that would be the warping ability.

I interpreted that as the new doujutsu being the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.

[Nekron]

I interpreted that as the new doujutsu being the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.

Um no. That would be the "inextinguishable light" that is mentioned first. It says "also", he gained a new doujutsu.

[Masamune]

Um no. That would be the "new light" that doesn't get extinguished.
Reread it. Yes, that would be the case.

[Black Crow]

Another theory hides behind the fact that he collects sharingans.If he truly posseses the ultimate eye technique why bother collecting normal sharingans?And even if he did because he doesn't want for foreigners to steal sharingans why just not destroy them?

The speculation is that most notably he doesn't anymore posses EMS.The theory implies that by adding sharingans(normal or mangekyou)he prolongs the time he can use mangekyou before his eyes go blind and that somehow when the eyes change hosts he prolongs his life.The only difference between implanting normal sharingans to MS is that by adding MS he also adds power to his eyes.The reason that he doesnt posses EMS is because due to overuse against Hashirama he wasted his brother's MS(and possibly due to izanagi his left eye).Moreover in chapter 467 page 9 he commented after teleporting sasuke that he "likes to stockpile good eyes".Which makes us presume that the only thing he wants from sasuke is his eyes alongside Itachi's(Itachi's eyes are sealed into sasuke's eyes but are not merged with sasuke's)to further prolong his eyesight and add more power to his eyes.

I believe that's about it,however it's just a theory so even I am not sure of it.

[tybalt247]

pretty good thought process and good refrences to your theory but if kishi goes all back to the future part three on me im done. he would have to explain a ton of other things that arent that easy to bundle up like when the first "killed" him why didnt he just go back in time right then and try again? And if he was forgotten by everyone with this jutsu whats his statue doing beside the firsts? I guess kishi could pull it off somehow but i dont know how without gettin the plot lines even more sloppy than they are now.

[tybalt247]

?

[Nekron]

My theory on the collection of eyes is based primarily on the number of them: 96. So that, plus one Madara eye, plus one Kakashi eye, plus two Sasuke eyes, equals 100. I suspect that is not a coincidence. So my theory is that Madara intends to use those eyes with his plan. Probably either to control the Jubi (for someone other than the sage, that kind of power would be necessary) or to use to project the illusion onto the moon.

[Jebus]

My theory on the collection of eyes is based primarily on the number of them: 96. So that, plus one Madara eye, plus one Kakashi eye, plus two Sasuke eyes, equals 100. I suspect that is not a coincidence. So my theory is that Madara intends to use those eyes with his plan. Probably either to control the Jubi (for someone other than the sage, that kind of power would be necessary) or to use to project the illusion onto the moon.

he probaly going to use the eyes like satelite around the world so when the moon the genjustu still will be affected.