[Discussion] Chakra

[Lone_ant]

I'd like to talk about chakra in this thread.

Lone_Ant's Psuedo-Thesis on Chakra
Part 1: The three divisions.

I understand that chakra works like Mana in those RPG games, where it is an inherent human characteristic (like ki) that is consumed in using Ninja Techniques.

There are 3 Major Divisions of Ninja Technique:
Taijutsu, Genjustsu, and Ninjutsu, and I believe that the way chakra is used here is diffrent for each.

In Taijutsu, chakra isn't used extensively as it relies more on the stamina and the body of the user, however, chakra control is still used to supplement and enhance the user's body. In the extreme, the Celestial Gates are opened to flood the body with chakra and further boost the body's abilities past its limits.

In Genjutsu, chakra control is here used most extensively by projecting chakra into the enemies' brain and control it's flow and how the enemy perceives and reacts with the senses. Through this, great mental damage is done, *and if the genjutsu is strong enough, the mind could influence the body and cause real injuries where there are imagined ones (*from a filler in Naruto Anime so this might not be true).

In Ninjutsu, chakra is used almost exactly like in those RPGs, in exchange for some chakra, an equivalent Technique can be used. Summoning is a form of Ninjutsu that uses the chakra for space-time manipulation to summon a contracted creature in battle.

<<--===-->>

I still have a lot to talk about,.. like the chakra types, the Blood-Line limits (kekkai genkai),.. Sage of the six paths and Clan Techniques.. but I'll cover them later so as not to make this post too long. So what do you think of how I understand how Chakra is used? Please crtique and correct me :D

[RKC]

why is lighting a deferent element it should be in the group of fire cuz when lightning hits something like a tree it produces fire

there only should be four element of fire , water , earth , air

[Gottheim]

I understand that chakra works like Mana in those RPG games, where it is an inherent human characteristic (like ki) that is consumed in using Ninja Techniques.

Good expose on the whole, but you got that one point wrong. Chakra is indeed similar to mana in its use, but the nature is different. Running out of mana will have little impact on your body. You'll be mentally tired, but that's about it.
Chakra is closely linked physical endurance. An empty chakra pool means over-exertion, loss of consciousness and even death. Kakashi often ends up in hospital because sharingan, and even moreso in MS form burns a crazy amount of his chakra. He also forbade Sasuke to use Chidori more than twice a day because the third time would kill him.
I can't find the links, but what I said is clearly stated in the manga.

[Saintkoe]

why is lighting a deferent element it should be in the group of fire cuz when lightning hits something like a tree it produces fire

there only should be four element of fire , water , earth , air

Lightning in the terms of Naruto world is a seperate element. Also it would depend on what you're basing the elements around.

In Wu Xing there are five elements, fire , water , wood, metal and earth.

In Hindu and Buddism there are five elements, Vayu/Pavan (Air), Agni/Tejas (Fire) , Ap/Jala (Water), Prithvi/Bhumi (Earth) and Akasha (Aether).

In Godai there are Chi (earth), Sui (water), Ka (fire),Fu (air) and Ku(void/heaven/sky).

In Greek there are also 5 Air,Fire,Water, Earth,and Aether.

In tibetan there is 5 Air , Fire , Water, Earth and Space.

So Kishi desided there are 5 also in his world of Wind, Fire, Water, Earth and Lightning.

[drunkenking]

@RKC
What your saying is right in my opinion. Its just like how they explained it in Avater:the last airbender, lol.

Lightning is just a highly intensified version of fire. But w/e, kishi wrote it that way so its the Law of Naruto

[Melinda-chan]

These links can be helpful:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/17/Naruto2-10-16
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/17/Naruto2-10-18

In comparing with Naruto and his teammates...

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/90/03
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/90/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/90/05
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/90/06

I'll find the Kakashi and Sasuke reference but I don't want to go through layers of pages just to find that single page. It was during the latter part of the Chuunin exams anyway.

[drunkenking]

Isn;t aether more like emptiness though? The reason for those elements is to explain what makes up space, but some space is made up by nothing (to saintkoe)

[RKC]

In Wu Xing there are five elements, fire , water , wood, metal and earth.metal , Crystals and any other thing that come from earth is earth elemental.......even Blood is water so it belongs in the water group

[Lone_ant]

Lightning in the terms of Naruto world is a seperate element. Also it would depend on what you're basing the elements around.

In Wu Xing there are five elements, fire , water , wood, metal and earth.

In Hindu and Buddism there are five elements, Vayu/Pavan (Air), Agni/Tejas (Fire) , Ap/Jala (Water), Prithvi/Bhumi (Earth) and Akasha (Aether).

In Godai there are Chi (earth), Sui (water), Ka (fire),Fu (air) and Ku(void/heaven/sky).

In Greek there are also 5 Air,Fire,Water, Earth,and Aether.

In tibetan there is 5 Air , Fire , Water, Earth and Space.

So Kishi desided there are 5 also in his world of Wind, Fire, Water, Earth and Lightning.

Woah! Amazing man :thumbup:

Lone_ant's Psuedo-Thesis on Chakra
Part 2: The 5 elements

In the Naruto World (as Saintkoe said) there are 5 elements that Chakra have a natural affinity to. Wether the world is composed of these elements or not we do not know, but these elements are what compose the various Ninjutsu techniques used by the Ninja.

Using techniques of the same elemental affinity as your chakra would result in less chakra wastage and greater technique power, so the wise ninja specializes on using techniques that follow from their chakra. But to use these techniques, one needs to convert Basic Chakra (default chakra) into an Elemental Chakra, and by using spatial and elemental manipulation manifest the said techniques.

*The five elements have weaknesess and strengths relative to each other (Same technique level):

Earth defeats Water, Water defeats Fire, Fire defeats Wind, Wind defeats Lightning, Lightning defeats Earth.

Moreover, using this fact, one can combine techniques (note: not the chakra themselves) of different affinities to further boost attack or defence power. i.e. Fire and Wind techniques combined to create a more powerful and explosive Fire-Wind technique.

<-===->
^ as I understand it.

Next up would be the other chakra types, and perhaps Blood line limits.

[Saintkoe]

Isn;t aether more like emptiness though? The reason for those elements is to explain what makes up space, but some space is made up by nothing (to saintkoe)
Aether is basically the upper sky, space/ heaven. basically yeah thats the reasoning behind the element. The term springs from greek myth.

metal , Crystals and any other thing that come from earth is earth elemental.......even Blood is water so it belongs in the water group Take it up with Wu Xing not with me. those are the 5 classic elements that almost all chinese philos. is based upon. Including Cosmology, feng shui, Bagua (which is very intresting to read about when it comes to the Hyuuga since it has to do with the 8 trigrams of I ching), medicine, astrology, music, Martial arts and more.

[drunkenking]

Woah, your smart Saintkoe.

Because your so smart, i'd lik to hear your opinions on lightning as an "element" in Naruto. Do you personally think it was a good choice, or anyone else for that matter?

[Saintkoe]

I actually like the idea alot because it keeps the balance of the 5 elements and keeps an understanding that lightning doesn't fall so neatly into fire as an element. example is if water hits fire it puts it out, yet if water and lightning come together water acts as a conductor strengthing the power of it.

[Lone_ant]

Lone Ant's Pseudo Thesis on Chakra
Part 3: Other types.

>>Addendum: Others

There is more to chakra than the 5 elements however. To achieve the other featsr of awe that ninjas do everyday (well, occasionaly, but whatever), they also utilize other types of chakra. An obvious example would be Yin-Yang chakra. Yin and Yang are two elemental forces that flow in the body and in nature, and by manipulating and balancing these are the goals of the traditional arts of acupuncture and feng-shui. Some techniques recquire the use of these chakra and not of the 5 elements, i.e. Nara clan's techniques of shadow manipulation, and the creation of Medical chakra used for healing and other body manipulation techniques.

There might still be other types of chakra, and there are some unanswered questions. For example, The Sage of the Six Paths basically created Ninjutsu and was able to use all the types of chakra. But there are only 5 elements so why 6 paths?

<<-===->>

Indeed,.. fire is from the ground to the heavens, lightning is from the heavens down to the ground. So I think there are enough diffrences to warrant an elemental division, I mean you don't feel hot when you get shocked by static electricity right?

I'm transfering Bloodline limits as it seems it is going to be quite lengthy and complicated; and this is the part where it's going to be full of speculation and assumptions so I'm leaving it last.

[Sephilli]

Electricity and fire are not the same thing.

Fire is the combustion of a material. Combustion reactions generally make energy, water (H2O), and Carbon Dioxide (CO2). Therefore, you can say that fire produces water, and then we'd all get into some giant argument and all be unhappy.

Electricity is just the flow of electrons in a current. Lightning and Electricity are basically the same thing in Narutoverse. The reason that lightning makes a fire if it hits a tree, is because a lot of energy from the bolt is thrown onto the tree. Electricity and fire have very little to do with each other.

Being extremely rational though, I don't see these 5 elements making up the world. I see electrons, protons, and neutrons, which cause these "elements" to occur. Fire is not an element. Hydrogen, Oxygen, Helium, or Iron (to name a few) would be. There's a reason it's called the "Periodic Table of the Elements"

Alrighty, the science lesson is over. What were we talking about again?

[Azurefeatherfly]

metal , Crystals and any other thing that come from earth is earth elemental.......even Blood is water so it belongs in the water group

People do not come up with this stuff on the spot. Most of these laws are part of a civilization. Everyone can have a different perception of the same thing, that is why there are so many different elemental laws from different cultures.

Alrighty, the science lesson is over. What were we talking about again?

We were talking elements in the world of Naruto, not scientific elements from our world. No offense, but I think you got a little carried away.

Just kidding, your explanation was great.

[Saintkoe]

Electricity and fire are not the same thing.

Fire is the combustion of a material. Combustion reactions generally make energy, water (H2O), and Carbon Dioxide (CO2). Therefore, you can say that fire produces water, and then we'd all get into some giant argument and all be unhappy.

Electricity is just the flow of electrons in a current. Lightning and Electricity are basically the same thing in Narutoverse. The reason that lightning makes a fire if it hits a tree, is because a lot of energy from the bolt is thrown onto the tree. Electricity and fire have very little to do with each other.

Being extremely rational though, I don't see these 5 elements making up the world. I see electrons, protons, and neutrons, which cause these "elements" to occur. Fire is not an element. Hydrogen, Oxygen, Helium, or Iron (to name a few) would be. There's a reason it's called the "Periodic Table of the Elements"

Alrighty, the science lesson is over. What were we talking about again?

except you are talking elements involed in chem. , there is elements involed in philos to which is more of what naruto is akin to. element in itself is a very broad word with over 13 differant defintions that spring forth from the word including math, chem, and many others. Elements has even more defintions none of which have to do with chem.
Sorry you are using the Chem defintion for a word that has many others that are more akin to the subject matter doesn't work.

[Sephilli]

From Dictionary.com (Removed all definitions that weren't on-topic):

el·e·ment Pronunciation[el-uh-muhnt]
–noun
2. Chemistry. one of a class of substances that cannot be separated into simpler substances by chemical means. See also chart under periodic table.
6. one of the substances, usually earth, water, air, and fire, formerly regarded as constituting the material universe.
9. Astronomy. any of the data required to define the precise nature of an orbit and to determine the position of a planet in the orbit at any given time.
12. Astrology. any of the four triplicity groupings of signs: fire, earth, air, or water.

For #6, the key word is formerly

Anyway, Earth is not an element. It's either a planet, or you could say that dirt/soil is made up of a bunch of particles (don't know which, but never the same ones).

Water is H2O, and is made up of smaller particles. This would be 3 atoms, in this case.

Fire is a mixture of heat and energy, nothing else.

Air is vague as hell. This can be Oxygen Gas (O2) or Carbon Dioxide (CO2) or even other gases that are floating around in our atmosphere. An element should never be that vague (same thing with soil/earth/ground)

You might say that the word element is dependent on it's context, but nowadays, the word element has become far more specific, to the point where the Chemistry definition is basically the only one (not counting definitions like: "James is an element of our soccer team").

[Saintkoe]

From Dictionary.com (Removed all definitions that weren't on-topic):

el·e·ment Pronunciation[el-uh-muhnt]
–noun
2. Chemistry. one of a class of substances that cannot be separated into simpler substances by chemical means. See also chart under periodic table.
6. one of the substances, usually earth, water, air, and fire, formerly regarded as constituting the material universe.
9. Astronomy. any of the data required to define the precise nature of an orbit and to determine the position of a planet in the orbit at any given time.
12. Astrology. any of the four triplicity groupings of signs: fire, earth, air, or water.

For #6, the key word is formerly

Anyway, Earth is not an element. It's either a planet, or you could say that dirt/soil is made up of a bunch of particles (don't know which, but never the same ones).

Water is H2O, and is made up of smaller particles. This would be 3 atoms, in this case.

Fire is a mixture of heat and energy, nothing else.

Air is vague as hell. This can be Oxygen Gas (O2) or Carbon Dioxide (CO2) or even other gases that are floating around in our atmosphere. An element should never be that vague (same thing with soil/earth/ground)

You might say that the word element is dependent on it's context, but nowadays, the word element has become far more specific, to the point where the Chemistry definition is basically the only one (not counting definitions like: "James is an element of our soccer team").
Once again you are trying to break it down into science when the terms are used in a philos way. It has not become specific in those terms alone. Sorry elements in the terms of the 5 divine are still used in taoism, buddism, hinduism , feng shui, accupuncture and many other things.

[Lone_ant]

An element is defined by the number of protons in an atom, chemically speaking.

But enough about that..to finish this, here's my problemetic

Lone_ant's Pseudo-Thesis on Chakra
Part 4: Blood Line limits

In the World of Naruto there are advanced teqniques that are literaly handed down from generation to generation in a family, the Blood Line limit or Kekkai Genkai. Due to a mutation in the person's DNA, he gains a unique ability that can be passed down to his descendants, extremely useful for NInja missions and Technique exclusivity as only people that has the genetic marker can use it. I have arranged to divide the known techniques in two:

<Elemental>
1. Haku Family's Ice Element
2. 1st Hokage's Wood Element
3. 4th Kazekage's Magnetic Element

<Phsiological>
1. Kimimaro Family's Bone Manipulation
2. Juugo's CS Secretion

The Three Doujutsus
3. Rin'nigan
4. Sharingan
5. Byakugan

Apparently, the Elemental Blood Line limits are actually an ability that allows the user to combine elemental chakra and create a "new" element. The mutation thus opens up a whle new horizon for these users, with Ice = Wind + Water; Wood = Earth + Water; Magnetism = Earth + Lightning?

The Phsiological Blood line limits are more tricky to describe in terms of chakra,..Juugo's abillity seems to be inherent in his body, perhaps it's not a Blood Line limit but just plain mutation. What element does Kimmimaro's Bone Manipulation use? Earth + Wind? maybe it's simply a manipulation of Yin and Yang possible only because of his familie's genes. Are Phsiological Blood Line limits the result of a combination of elements or not?

Another problem are the Doujutsus; to classify them on the assumption that all Blood Line limits are combination of elements, I'll say Byakugan = Yin + Yang; Sharingan = Fire + Lightning; Rin'nigan = All 5 (6?). But that's just an assumption. More over it seems that these eye techniques can be stolen, obviously with Sharingan, and the Thunder village's attempt at stealing the Byakugan proves it is stealable. For the Rin'negan, we can only refer to the previous two's example, but all this points to the fact that if indeed these are stolen, then the new user would use considerably more chakra upon activating compared to a native user. Going with our assumption of element combination, it would seem that it is the genes themselves in the eye that does this, no skill or talent from the user is necessary in the possibility of combining elements.

<<-===->>

Next up would be the Bijuus and the Evil Statue from Hell (well, 4 is a bad number to end something with)

[Sephilli]

I would say that Doujutsu's as well as Physiological Kekkei Genkai are mutations of the body and have nothing to do with "elements". Frankly, I don't think Kishi himself has figured this stuff out, so I doubt there's much analysis behind it.

[Lone_ant]

Hmm, yes it does get confusing,.. but it has to involve chakra because when they run out of it they can't use it anymore.

Anyway, I need to sign off soon so I'm finishing my psuedo-thesis with this last part...

Lone_ant's Psuedo-Thesis on Chakra
Part 5: The Bijuu

The Bijuu are awesome creatures of the Naruto world, so great is their power that the arrival of one on a village would be considered on par with a massive calamity. Nine Bijuus exist in total, with varying amounts of chakra and strenght as signified by the number of tails. More over, it seems that each Bijuu has a certain elemental affinity or at least some ability that makes it unique among it's peers i.e. Shukaku's sand manipulation and 2-tailed cat's Sound attack. As of now, 7 of the 9 have been captured by Akatsuki for use in their Weapon of Mass Destruction Statue.

Bijuu are basically massive amounts of sapient chakra, given form I don't know how. This is curiousity because this is the only phenomenon that we know of chakra existing without a "body" to inhabit or come from. Even their origins are a mystery, did they exist before the Sage of the Six Paths? did he create them? It also seems that since they are only chakra, they can be sealed inside chosen humans using powerful Ninjutsu, thus creating the jinchuuriki. Originaly intended to be weaopons by their respective country, they are able to weild the massive chakra that the Bijuu possess and having formal training, use them more effectively and efficiently.

Thanks for listening.

Fin.
<<-===->>

Well that ends that, that's all I know about chakra or at least as I had understood and read. =)

Don't let me stop you this is just the end of what *I* know, I present this so that in your discussion you may surpass what I have shown you and learn more about the (fictional) world :thumbup:

[jimbob jones]

now that you spoken about bijuu i just wanted to clear something up.. is naruto's own chakras + kyubi's chakra when released 100 more than kekkashi. Or is it that without the kyubi narutos own chakra wouldd be 100 time more than kekkashi's??

I dont think the sage of six paths would have created the biju, as chakra is a naturally occuring force and has always existed, thus the bijuu are just massive build ups of these chakra's that have existed for as long as man (maybe they're a by product of war with massive amounts a death and left over chakra from the dead which is why they take on such agressive personalities) I would be likely that the sage of six paths was the first to manipulate them and wield them in battle.

Another question is what will happen when they are all brought together. Maybe they can be used to resurrected the sage of six paths who can be controlled by whoever does so. Maybe the bijuu are divisions of his personaliy and chakra that has split up when he died (im just rambling now). but seriously what do u think will happen if they are all brought together??

[Gottheim]

I guess you mean Kakashi, not kekkaishi (that's the title of a manga, isn't it?) There are conflicting translations about the subject, but Naruto having 100 times Kakashi's chakra is more consistent with the rest of the story.
Here are the links:
This (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/yf1989/11-1.jpg) is the translation used by One-manga and Bleach-exile
The Kyuubi has to kick in for Naruto to reach 100 times Kakashi's chakra. But then if Yamato is refraining the demon's chakra where does all the spare chakra come from? He is basically forbidden to use Kyuubi, and he doesn't.

This (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/yf1989/Naruto315_11.jpg) is the translation used by Narutocentral, Narutochaos, and Jinchuuriki


Naruto can make several rounds of kage bunshin, and he makes them by the thousands. The clones are all able to fight and manipulate chakra. And he does all that without Kyuubi's help. Naruto is the only ninja known to make such a large number of clones at one, and he does it without the demon's chakra (wich is recognizable when used).
Moerover, he can use them for training of advanced kinjutsu, when even Kakashi couldn't use one for basic training. And that he did while Yamato was preventing the fox's chakra from leaking out.

[Azurefeatherfly]

You might say that the word element is dependent on it's context, but nowadays, the word element has become far more specific, to the point where the Chemistry definition is basically the only one (not counting definitions like: "James is an element of our soccer team").

This is a Naruto thread and anything discussed needs to be within the context of the story. There is only one definition for elements when we talk about chakra and ninjutsu. Chakra is used to form elements and elements are used to form ninjutsus.

[Tago]

"Twice"

Kakashi: Naruto you have twice as my chakra. ( Blabla)

Naruto using the chakra of kyuubi has 100x more.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/315/11/

And if Yamato does not suppress the Ninetails chackra, it could be 100 times more

[Decorus]

Earlier evidence in the Manga gives more credence to Naruto having far more personal chakra while Kyuubi's chakra is taken out of the picture. Then later evidence indicates that Naruto's own chakra is stronger then Kyuubi's or Kyuubi's chakra would have killed Naruto a long time ago.

[NarutoBunny44]

Earlier evidence in the Manga gives more credence to Naruto having far more personal chakra while Kyuubi's chakra is taken out of the picture. Then later evidence indicates that Naruto's own chakra is stronger then Kyuubi's or Kyuubi's chakra would have killed Naruto a long time ago.


so basically what they are saying is that naruto has more chakra than the kyuubi?

[Gottheim]

No, he doesn't. Read the posts on the page, not just the one above your own. The question is currently being discussed.

[KOF Oswald]

Hmm, yes it does get confusing,.. but it has to involve chakra because when they run out of it they can't use it anymore.

Anyway, I need to sign off soon so I'm finishing my psuedo-thesis with this last part...

Lone_ant's Psuedo-Thesis on Chakra
Part 5: The Bijuu

The Bijuu are awesome creatures of the Naruto world, so great is their power that the arrival of one on a village would be considered on par with a massive calamity. Nine Bijuus exist in total, with varying amounts of chakra and strenght as signified by the number of tails. More over, it seems that each Bijuu has a certain elemental affinity or at least some ability that makes it unique among it's peers i.e. Shukaku's sand manipulation and 2-tailed cat's Sound attack. As of now, 7 of the 9 have been captured by Akatsuki for use in their Weapon of Mass Destruction Statue.

Bijuu are basically massive amounts of sapient chakra, given form I don't know how. This is curiousity because this is the only phenomenon that we know of chakra existing without a "body" to inhabit or come from. Even their origins are a mystery, did they exist before the Sage of the Six Paths? did he create them? It also seems that since they are only chakra, they can be sealed inside chosen humans using powerful Ninjutsu, thus creating the jinchuuriki. Originaly intended to be weaopons by their respective country, they are able to weild the massive chakra that the Bijuu possess and having formal training, use them more effectively and efficiently.

Thanks for listening.

Fin.
<<-===->>

Well that ends that, that's all I know about chakra or at least as I had understood and read. =)

Don't let me stop you this is just the end of what *I* know, I present this so that in your discussion you may surpass what I have shown you and learn more about the (fictional) world :thumbup:

Akatsuki has captured 8/9 of the biju. However Akatsuki has sealed 7/9 of the biju.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/353/005/

The two left refer to the four tails on Kisame's Sword and Kyubi.

And Naruto's chackra is stronger than the Kyubi in the sense of spirit not combat.

[Azurefeatherfly]

Akatsuki has captured 8/9 of the biju. However Akatsuki has sealed 7/9 of the biju.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/353/005/

The two left refer to the four tails on Kisame's Sword and Kyubi.

And Naruto's chackra is stronger than the Kyubi in the sense of spirit not combat.


This page is from chp353 directly after the one you posted:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/yf1989/006-1.png

Then in chp364:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/yf1989/Naruto_364_pg15.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/yf1989/Naruto_364_pg16.jpg

There is at least two more including Naruto

[Decorus]

No Naruto does have more Chakra and more powerful chakra then Kyuubi. Most of the time Naruto's chakra is used to keep Kyuubi and the effects related to that at bay. There are how ever moments where Kyuubi's chakra overwhelms Naruto and thats essentially what creates the Tailed Berseker form.

When in the Forest of Death after Kyuubi was sealed Naruto managed to maintain 3 Kage Bunshin all night long after using a large number of Kage Bunshin and even after all of that he was still able to continue to fight. In this instance Naruto had absolutely no access to Kyuubi's chakra and his ability to manipulate chakra was severely compromised.


Think of it this way a small amount of Kyuubi's chakra entered Sakura's bloodstream and nearly killed her. Naruto was completely engulfed in that and then he swallowed a ball of that chakra which was in an extremely concentrated form.

The only reason Yamato could figure on Naruto surviving that let alone actually moving is he has to have stronger chakra then Kyuubi.

[Sephilli]

There is NO way that Naruto could have more Chakra than the Kyuubi. That's like saying a midget is as tall as a skyscraper. It's a bunch of bull.

The Kyuubi's Chakra is so insanely high that Yondaime Hokage had to seal a mere half of the Kyuubi in Naruto, and still then, it's Chakra output is insane. No human can match a Bijuu in Chakra amount.

The only ones that anyone could get close to would probably be either Kisame or Naruto, getting close (MAYBE) to say Shuukaku (Ichibi, right?) or the Nibi. Still, it's extremely unlikely.

The reason Naruto is able to keep the seal strong is because he has the willpower to keep it so.

And Naruto survived going four tails because the Kyuubi healed his body rapidly afterwards. Plus, the Chakra that got into Sakura, and therefore probably Naruto, was some reference to the Kyuubi's chakra being poisonous of sorts.

[Lone_ant]

I think that after all these years, Kyuubi's and Naruto's chakra are becoming one, or how should I say it, they are starting to mix together harmoniously. Thunk of it as two snakes that after long years of being tied together by the tail, are starting to fuse.
That way, although releasing Kyuubi's chakra at 4 tail level would have killed or taken over Naruto a few years back, now that level is tolerable in as much as to a certain extent, Kyuubi's chakra is Naruto's and vice versa.

Thinking of it this way, although Naruto doesn't have a much chakra as the Fox (no human can equal a bijuu in terms of amount of chakra), since the Fox's chakra is "added" to his own, he has 100+ times Kakashi's chakra.

[Sephilli]

Well, that seems like a good theory there, Ant, and it's partially been proven too.

I remember Jiraiya saying way back when he met Naruto that the seal lets Naruto use a bit of the fox's chakra every time he uses his own (or that was my interpretation). Where usually he would use say 100% of his chakra, the fox gives 20% of that for whatever technique he's using. Thus, he only needs to contribute 80%, or something like that.

[Lone_ant]

Throws his chakra control out of whack though. There's something I want to point out too, the amount of Chakra that Kisame has, and the chakra absorbing/sucking ability of Samehada.

Currently, I believe that he is the most chakra loaded human in the whole Naruto world. Even among the Akatsuki, Pein said that he was his superior in that aspect (though he might be lying).
Consider too how he made 3 Misu-binshins and used techniques with them after summoning water where there was none, summoning water was supposed to be hokage level technique; I think said during the Orochimaru + 1st and 2nd Hokage vs Sarutobi fight.

My question is, since the 1 tailed Shukaku was supposed to have a chakra level of 20+ Joinin Ninjas (said somewhere I can't remember, on the way to rescuing Gaara maybe?), is Kisame close to that level, like a half-tail human-bijuu?

I also think that he gets all that chakra from the chakra drained by his Samehada and transfered to him. I'd really like to know who made that weopon, or is it a legendary blade like Kisaragi?

[Gottheim]

Naruto has an amount of chakra as close as possible to a bijuu's. but having more chakra than even the lesser of them is quite unlikely. The only reason he seems like he has more chakra than Kyuubi is because the seal is designed to allow only a small portion of Kyuubi's chakra out at a time. Naruto surviving the four tailed form is partly because Kyuubi heals him back to normal and partly because he survives long enough for Kyuubi to heal him.
One could think of Naruto as a "human bijuu". He has several times more chakra than anyone, not merely twice Kakashi's, because with only half Naruto's amont of chakra Kakashi would be nearly invincible.
Naruto has 100 times Kakashi's chakra WITHOUT the demon's added to his own. And before you start calling the idea ridiculous, remember Naruto is the only ninja known to be able to produce 1000 clones at a time and use them for advanced training while Yamato was suppressing the fox. Naruto's features are altered each time he uses Kyuubi (red eyes, more pronounced whiskers, claws, animal-like posture, longer, sharper teeth separately or all at once depending on the amount used), and they weren't during his training.

Now think about Rock Lee. Supposed to be an average guy with not an ounce of ninjutsu in him someone like you and me. Yet he carries wheights heavy enough to dig a small hole in a concrete floor when dropped. Additionally, opening the gates allows him movement faster than Gaara's sand, so quick even a sharingan his hard pressed to keep up. Did I mention opening the gates could crack the soil open in several meters' radius?
If an average human can do that in Naruto, then Naruto naturally having 100 times Kakashi's chakra doesn't seem so far-fetched.

Lone Ant I think you have mistaken the legendary sword Kusanagi with the Eyeshield 21 football player Kisaragi. Like my avatar that much?

[Lone_ant]

Lol yeah sorry about that damn subliminal messages.

Anyhow as I see it, Yamato was helping naruto control the Kyuubi chakra and in the event of a tail-emergence only then would he completely suppress the kyuubi.

About Rock Lee, he can use chakra, just not Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, so he isn't like you and me. You know, like pooling chakra at the lims to make them faster and stronger or walking on water...
Anyhow, so we can say that he has chakra as much as say Kiba or Tenten. That being said, releasing the Gates are increases your chakra to Hokage level++ for some time with adverse side effects. Hokage level++ is not 100 times Kakashi's

Now on Naruto. About the physical changes wrought when using Kyuubi chakra, he always has whiskers (since the kyuubi was sealed in him at the moment of birth), hence, he always uses the chakra to augment his own. The diffrence is the amount used, at say 20% nothing changes, 30% he grows claws and red aura chakra, eye change, increased regenerative abilities, 40% 1st tail, 45% 2nd tail, etc.. what I mean is that it is a gradiated thing. Like the yoki release in Claymores (if you read that), they constantly use Yoki, but ussually not enough to change their appearance.

Also I agree about Kyuubi's chakra healing him, but this is not enough an explanation as there is a limit to the regenerative abilities. Moreover, a small bit poisoned Sakura. For the kyuubi to not poison him, he'd have to be at least accustumed to it to an extent that makes him immune (i.e. harmonious mixing).

And no, well, Naruto by himself can't create 100 clones without the Kyuubi inside him. so he can't have 100 times kakahi's chakra (by himself)

[Gottheim]

Taijutsu has little to do with chakra manipulation. As explained (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/90/04/) by Ebisu, it relies on raw stamina. Chakra is basically stamina molded through hand seals into an energy suitable for ninjutsu (see the little sketches).
There is indeed a limit to Kyuubi's healing abilities. This is why Yamato was concerned with Naruto using it, because as Jiraya said, it does Naruto more harm than good in the long run.
About Naruto and the demon's chakra mixing, this is true, but remember (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/92/11/) what Jiraya had to have him do so he could tap into it. He has to be under dire stress, or experiencing great anger or a conscious move to tap into Kyuubi's chakra. The demon's energy is kept in check (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/94/04/) most of the time because if it was released on a constant basis it would cause small but constant body damage. The whiskers on Naruto's face are "proof" he is a bijuu container. Gaara has tanuki eyes even when Shukaku is asleep.
And for the thousandth time, I'll repost this link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/299/10/). The bottom panel and the top pannel in the next page can't be clearer. Naruto would do fairly well without Kyuubi's chakra to burden him. But with it, he'll achieve more power than any man can dream.

[Lone_ant]

Taijutsu techniques relies more on the body indeed, but you can use chakra to further boost speed and power (as Sakura did in the chuunin exam prelims, and everyone above genin level does), to "stick" on surfaces, to walk on water, and since Lee can do all of that without opening the Gates, we can say that he has the same amount of chakra as any average Chuunin, it's just that he can't use Ninjutsu or Genjutsu.

Naruto can tap the Kyuubi's chakra on his own now without those conditions, that was three years ago.

I see, he does indeed try to supress it completely, but he doesn't succeed completely as there are still numerous occasions where the clone loses control, and has to "up" his suppresion technique. I don't think though that you don't have to have tons of chakra to resist the kyuubi, I think what he is saying is that he has his own chakra and it was his chakra's strength (his will) that's why he is able to resist getting taken over.

(Is this the training for the wind-rasengan part [that's what I think]?, if not, we don't get to see him using hundred cloning until that.. at which point Yamato breaks his suppresion and uses a different technique that allows for the Kyuubi chakra to be used during training)

[Gottheim]

Naruto is now skilled enough to use Kyuubi's chakra at will. I did mention he could do it consciously in the previous post. And whenever he fails to suppress Kyuubi Yamato does it for him. As I said before each time Naruto uses Kyuubi's chakra, his looks change, and his chakra becomes red. Since Yamato is basically preventing any kind of red chakra to come out the chakra Naruto uses is his own.
Lee can use basic chakra manipulation to water walk, (I've checked the manga and you're right he can) but he can't enhance his physical power through chakra manipulation because that's advanced ninjutsu and that's what Tsunade and Sakura do. The strength and speed he uses are his own and opening the gates merely allows him to go full power. But that's still his basic human body. And no human body I know of can do what Lee does. He has the same potential of chakra as any chuunin but since he can't do ninjutsu, it's as if he didn't.

[Lone_ant]

Meh let's not nit-pick (though nit-picking is fun) , we're just repeating what each of us is saying. lol


Currently, I believe that he[Kisame] is the most chakra loaded human in the whole Naruto world. Even among the Akatsuki, Pein said that he was his superior in that aspect (though he might be lying).
Consider too how he made 3 Misu-binshins and used techniques with them after summoning water where there was none, summoning water was supposed to be hokage level technique; I think said during the Orochimaru + 1st and 2nd Hokage vs Sarutobi fight.

My question is, since the 1 tailed Shukaku was supposed to have a chakra level of 20+ Joinin Ninjas (said somewhere I can't remember, on the way to rescuing Gaara maybe?), is Kisame close to that level, like a half-tail human-bijuu?


So out of curiousity, because I know we have insufficient data. but if you would hzard a guess who has greater chakra?

1. Naruto (himself without Kyuubi)
2. Kisame

I'm going with Kisame here as the most he did was 4 misu-bunshines + water techniques with each or The Hell-Statue sealing + lending 30? 40?% chakra to Pein. Compared to Naruto Kyuubi-less evenly distributing his chakra to 100++ clones (which kagebunchin does) I think this is more likely, IMO though.

If Naruto can do 100-cloning without Kyuubi then he has the greater, but he has Bijuu level chakra amount which contradicts the idea that no human can be on par with Bijuu in terms of chakra amount (even hokages cannot as far as I can see).

[jimbob jones]

i think kisame at the moment but naruto is still developing so he could easily overpass him. Also is kisame able to use the chakra his sword absorbs because thar would make a difference.

Also going back to the naruto/kakashi chakra thing i rekon naruto would have to have 100 time the chakra of kakashi otherwise kakashi could complete the same training in sa only double the time (with would only be a couple more days). Although 100 times more seemse a little excessive.

But (this is the anime i know but i havent read the early parts of naruto) when naruto takes one shikaku (i cant spell so not sure if that right - the one tail bijuu) he is only using his chakra not the fox's its only towards the end that he is forced to use the nine tails chakra. Sasuke even comments hes gone to another level. Thus naruto basically took on a bijuu by himself and at that stage had a comparable level of chakra to the bijuu... which was more than sasuke at the time and would have been a **** load. Feel free to correct me on any points as this is anime speculation....

[Lone_ant]

He uses kyuubi when he sees Sakura hurt (his eyes change) doing the 100++ Kage-bunshin to beat up chibi-shukaku.

At the end, he used more again (but he was covered by Sand) to summon Gamabunta.
+ Gaara was hit with a Chidori,. battled CS Sasuke,.. etc..

Actually, Kakashi already did the "New Ultimate Technique" training when he was 13 years old I think with his creation of Raikiri. Though I'm not sure about the amount of time that Naruto actually trained (I can't remember). But given the number of clones,. say 50++ * 2 days it would take Kakashi 100 days to do Naruto's training; well -31 because he is a genius.

[gohantheman]

The Kyuubi started to lend his chakra without the knowledge or consent of Naruto. Because he (Naruto) commented "What's this feeling? It's like i'm on fire." That's the Kyuubi's chakra at work. Remember the Kyuubi's chakra is Fire-Based so that comment that Naruto made would support that Kyuubi was lending his chakra without Naruto knowing about it.
And to through this out there since Naruto's chakra type is Wind wouldn't that make the Kyuubi's chakra stronger?

[IHTFP]

Note how, in the manga, Karin detected both Naruto and Kisame's chakra. She was alarmed at how Naruto's could surround them, but she flipped a lid when Kisame's huge chakra popped up.

I think the horny redhead proves Kisame has the greater chakra.

[IHTFP]

The Kyuubi started to lend his chakra without the knowledge or consent of Naruto. Because he (Naruto) commented "What's this feeling? It's like i'm on fire." That's the Kyuubi's chakra at work. Remember the Kyuubi's chakra is Fire-Based so that comment that Naruto made would support that Kyuubi was lending his chakra without Naruto knowing about it.
And to through this out there since Naruto's chakra type is Wind wouldn't that make the Kyuubi's chakra stronger?

Fire-based? Where did you learn this? It makes perfect sense, though.

Combining Kyuubi fire with Naruto wind would make a kick-@$$ jutsu, wouldn't it?

[gohantheman]

Remember Naruto's clones had chakra split evenly among them. So that's probably why she didn't flip out do to Naruto's chakra. She flipped do to how many of them they were. You double posted IHTFP. It says so in the manga. But i'm to lazy to look for the link where it says it though. Yeah it would be cool if he was able to combine them. It would be like Fire Tornado! or something like that. lol

[IHTFP]

Remember Naruto's clones had chakra split evenly among them. So that's probably why she didn't flip out do to Naruto's chakra. She flipped do to how many of them they were.

Yes, you're right. I suppose it could be a matter of how concentrated the chakra was.

But her reaction was a huge tipoff, and she could sense Naruto & co. following Hebi earlier, as well.

Heh... Fuuton-Katon-Kyuubi-Uzumaki-Rasen-Fireball-of-Death-gan-no-Jutsu-Dattebayo!

He'd be killed before he could declare it.

And sorry for the double post. I'm still new to this.

[Gottheim]

Naruto did take on Gaara by himself, the anime sticks to the manga most of the time. You can start reading from here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/133/).

[gohantheman]

But she wasn't worried about it because when push comes to shove they (Hebi) was stronger. Sasuke probably could have taken all 8 of them on if he really wanted to. He would be pushing his luck though. And there's the other 3 members of Hebi. Total it all up, odds are they can probably beat Naruto's group.

You have it half right Gottheim. Naruto was fighing with his own chakra until Garra when to his "true" form. Then Naruto used the Kyuubi's chakra to summon the Boss Toad where they had a small arguement, then again when Naruto was surrounded by sand (again) and to save himself and to get to Garra he pulled out the Kyuubi's chakra again. But i noticed something he's not very good at holding onto the Kyuubi's chakra. Kyuubi's chakra is massive even though only half of Kyuubi's chakra is sealed in Naruto. So Naruto shouldn't run out of chakra very fast but he runs out of the Kyuubi's chakra very fast and has to ask for more alot.

[IHTFP]

But she wasn't worried about it because when push comes to shove they (Hebi) was stronger. Sasuke probably could have taken all 8 of them on if he really wanted to. He would be pushing his luck though. And there's the other 3 members of Hebi. Total it all up, odds are they can probably beat Naruto's group.

Well, we have not seen any of Karin's jutsu, but Yamato would be perfect if set against Suigetsu (earth>water=water). Sasuke is good, but he couldn't take on Kakashi and Naruto simultaneously. And Akamaru could talk with Juugo and bring out his soft sissy side.

Personally, I don't think Sasuke needs a posse. He is just as good on his own.

[gohantheman]

Yeah Suigetsu and Yamato=good match. But do you honestly see have Akamaru having a talk with Juugo? And remember Sasuke took on Yamato, Naruto (even though he was injured), Sakura, and Sai all by himself and he was beating the crap out of them without even trying.

[IHTFP]

Yeah Suigetsu and Yamato=good match. But do you honestly see have Akamaru having a talk with Juugo? And remember Sasuke took on Yamato, Naruto (even though he was injured), Sakura, and Sai all by himself and he was beating the crap out of them without even trying.

Heh... the Akamaru thing was a joke. Not a good one, apparently...

Anywho, Sasuke took on Naruto and Sakura when they were both injured (Naruto had just faced Orochimaru in the dungeon and as the four-tails). Yamato is a poor match for Sasuke, but Kakashi would be able to fight him nearly (not quite) on par. If anyone came to help him, Kakashi could come out on top.

As for Juugo... I'm not sure who we can pair him up with. And don't forget Shino - his tactics and chakra-suckers are effective weapons.

[OneMangakage]

Getting back on the subject of chakra, I think I may be able to bring up a theory on the posts from earlier about how Naruto can have only "2" times more chakra than Kakashi. What if we consider chakra like water filling a container or body.

If you fill two glasses the same width, but one twice as tall, then the water at the bottom of the second container is much more dense.

Applying this to chakra, maybe Naruto only possess twice the amount of chakra as Kakashi, but since his is more "dense" his jutsus hold a lot potency, allowing him to summon hundreds of bushins while Kakashi can only use three maybe four.

For that matter we could pull another filler. This would explain for the differences in power among ninjas. You have the Kage level which almost seem god like compared with regular Ninja. The Hokages may not be that they have massive amounts of chakra, but just a bit more. And that bit makes their chakra more dense ergo more potent jutsu making them more, perhaps much more powerful than someone with comparable abilities but less max chakra.

If you apply this theory to the Bijuu then you would understand how with their huge chakra pools, they are consider huge destructive forces of nature rather than big monsters. It would be hard for me to think that the Kyubi would be powerful enough to need the entire army of the world's strongest ninja village and the sacrifice of its Hokage with only 100 times more chakra than the ninja's that are defending it.

[gohantheman]

That really is a good theory. One problem though. Lets go with your theory for a second. Now lets put a straw in there or something like that to represent somebody using there chakra. When you start using the chakra the chakra or water is less dense then it was before you started sucking out water. So that throws out your theory. Nice theory though.

[Gottheim]

To answer the chakra question (again) chakra is built from stamina, as stated by Ebisu and demonstrated within the sketches (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/90/04/).
And the density thing implies more matter in the same space, i.e Onemangakage in your example, one container is larger than the other. So the density remains the same. There isn't more water at the bottom of the glass than at the surface, because water can't be heavier than itself.
If Kakashi can't undergo the clone training, it's because he can't maintain them long enough for that purpose. I know the 100 times more Kyuubi-less seems exagerated, but look at Kisame: extracting the bijuu with a chakra-consuming technique, and creating a large lake in the middle of the desert with only 30% of his chakra, he still had enough left to capture Lee, Neji and Tenten in a Suirou no jutsu performed by water clones, fight Guy and throw high-level jutsu at him, forcing him to go six gates.
I'm not the author so I can't be definite, but if Kisame can do all that with only one third of his chakra capacity, (he has no bijuu in him, remember?) I see no reason why Naruto could not have much more than twice Kakashi's chakra without Kyuubi. All the more as Kakashi has a small amount of it.

[Elementals]

Hi guys i have been trying hard in many months to get an answer and i have only got confusings so now i seek your help.

About the Elemental Chakra in Naruto:

1. We know there are Water, Earth, Fire, Wind and Lightning.

2. We know there is Jutsus to these Elementals too.

3. You are born with one type (Fire) and it makes to and expert in that like Kisame and the Second Hohage can dreate water where is none.

And here is what i want to know.

1. Can you get more Elemental Chakras and how many?

2. Does an Elemental Jutus requires Elemental Chakra?

3. Does the Sharingan makes you able to use Elemental Jutsus without the needed Elemental Chakra or does you achieve the Elemenetal Chakra when you copy a Jutsu?

Thanks guys i hope you can help me.

[Saintkoe]

Might want to read the rules
http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=12864
Then check the
http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=7127
You would come across http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=4500

[Darkreaper70]

http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=4500
Way to read. D:

Edit:
Saint beat me D:

[Sephero Sama]

Hmm...lets see...
Yeah, you need to have the elemental chakra in order to perform elemental jutsus. For instance, Naruto couldn't so Rasenshuriken until he learned to master the wind element.

As for the Sharingan.....who knows? I doubt it though. Elemental chakra is like taijutsu: you have to train at in order to perfect it. The Sharingan may show you the basics of how its done, but its up to the user to decide whether they wish to perfect it or not. Also, one can't learn all the elements. The only one who can do that is Pein. Not even Kakuzu, who knew 4 or 5 of them, learned them all.

[Sakurazaki Raiken]

Hi guys i have been trying hard in many months to get an answer and i have only got confusings so now i seek your help.

About the Elemental Chakra in Naruto:

1. We know there are Water, Earth, Fire, Wind and Lightning.

2. We know there is Jutsus to these Elementals too.

3. You are born with one type (Fire) and it makes to and expert in that like Kisame and the Second Hohage can dreate water where is none.

And here is what i want to know.

1. Can you get more Elemental Chakras and how many?

2. Does an Elemental Jutus requires Elemental Chakra?

3. Does the Sharingan makes you able to use Elemental Jutsus without the needed Elemental Chakra or does you achieve the Elemenetal Chakra when you copy a Jutsu?

Thanks guys i hope you can help me.


Answer to one:

Yes, as your chakra reserves grows, so does your affinity to different elements.

Answer to two:

No it doesn't, it's just that if your element is compatible to the jutsu it will be more powerful and it won't use as much chakra as usual.

Answer to three:

Sharingan copies every move except bloodlines. And I beleive you can discern the rest by reading 1 and 2.

Special Fact:

If you want to invent an elemental technique, you must have mastered the following element as stated above.

[midnite chill]

1 yes you can have more than one elemental chakra. yamato has 2 elements, thats how he is able to create the wood element by combining his earth element and water. not sure if there is a limit to how many you can have

2 not really sure

3 the sharingan only give the ability to use elemental jutsus

[nocomment1]

well you can get more and it is proved in http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/05/

[Decorus]

1. You don't have elemental chakra, however you can learn affinities with different elements.

2. An elemental jutsu requires you to be able to use the Elemental recomposition technique for that element. Naruto can learn any Wind element, because he has trained in the Wind elemental recomposition technique, Sasuke can use any Fire Element or Lightning Element because he has trained in both Elemental Recomposition techniques.

3. The sharingan does not let you just copy jutsu. It actually has no ability in this regard. The sharingan provides you with the ability to memorize physical movement and then make use of it. How ever without actually having the elemental affinity you would not be able to perform the jutsu. Kakashi knows at least 4 Elements if not 5 and has an incredibly large 1000 plus jutsu library, but even still he can't just copy techniques. There are also a large number of techniques that would be beyond his ability to copy, like Rasengan or Summoning techniques or even medical ninjutsu techniques as well as blood line limits and secret house techniques.
You could for example memorize the movements of a Hyuuga to learn thier taijutsu techniques, but without thier precise chakra control and Byakugan the techniques you memorized would be useless.

[Saintkoe]

3. The sharingan does not let you just copy jutsu. It actually has no ability in this regard. The sharingan provides you with the ability to memorize physical movement and then make use of it. How ever without actually having the elemental affinity you would not be able to perform the jutsu. Kakashi knows at least 4 Elements if not 5 and has an incredibly large 1000 plus jutsu library, but even still he can't just copy techniques. There are also a large number of techniques that would be beyond his ability to copy, like Rasengan or Summoning techniques or even medical ninjutsu techniques as well as blood line limits and secret house techniques.
You could for example memorize the movements of a Hyuuga to learn thier taijutsu techniques, but without thier precise chakra control and Byakugan the techniques you memorized would be useless.

Just being nitpicky Kakashi has only shown 3 Elements, Doton, Raiton and Suiton. any others were anime only so don't count.

[Lone_ant]

I think everyone can convert their basic chakra to any element. It's just that their affinities allow them to use it more efficiently and effortlessly. Moreover, they wouldn't be able to master any advanced techniques that are not from their own affinity as it will go against the very grains of their being. (i.e. someone who doesn't like the water (and has no talent for it) can learn to swim but will never beat a professional, or even an above-average swimmer).

Therefore in terms of being a Ninja, where life and death is only a mission or kunai away, it makes sense to concentrate on your affinity and ignore the rest. Kakashi learned all those because well, he likes to learn techniques, and having a Sharingan is all the better for it. (His paper wasn't burnt wet, crumpled, burnt,and turned to dust one after the other so his affinity is Lightning only)

Notable Exceptions: Pein/ Sage of the Six Path who apparently has an affinity for all types

[Decorus]

Pein has only been seen using water to make it rain.
Jiraiyia only used Earth and Fire techniques, but taught Nagato how to use all 6 elements.
It was very specific you have to train to learn how to manipulate elemental chakra types. Having an affinity simply makes it easier for you to learn that particular elemental manipulation. Kakashi has a Raiton affinity, but he has undergone training to use other elemental manipulations like most jounin who know at least 2 elemental natures.

[formbizzle]

Answer to one:

Yes, as your chakra reserves grows, so does your affinity to different elements.

Answer to two:

No it doesn't, it's just that if your element is compatible to the jutsu it will be more powerful and it won't use as much chakra as usual.

Answer to three:

Sharingan copies every move except bloodlines. And I beleive you can discern the rest by reading 1 and 2.

Special Fact:

If you want to invent an elemental technique, you must have mastered the following element as stated above.



i dont agree with these answers.

these are mine...

1. you are born with certain elemental affinities. the size of your chakra reserve is inconsequential.
2. the jutsu's that you do are done through handseals and the elemental composition of your chakra. by forming the handseals and correct chakra composition, sasuke can do fire techniques.
3. sharingan copies movements, so handseals are copied instantaneously. skill is still needed, however, to perform jutsu's. just having sharingan doesnt mean you can use all five elements.

and as for your special fact...
mastery of an element has nothing to do with it. naruto is not a master of fuuton, but he created rasenshuriken.

[Lone_ant]

Well it seems that he is fairly proficient in it now.. not mastery, but using all those clones learning simultaneously I'd say he's above average..

[Sore920]

Is it possible for chakra types to be a family thing?

I guess the only support on this is the Uchiha, who all of the base fire chakra type.

So I want to talk about it.

[Lone_ant]

Yes I believe it can be, but it's like haircolor, every now and then in a family of all black out comes a brunete or even blonde. So generaly, in certain clans it is, but in others it is not.

Another example of this is ninja villages of Sand and Water, most of the ninjas in these villages have an elemental affinity to Earth(Wind is rare) and Water respectively and why is that? One explanation is the surroundings affect the chakra affinity of a person. But the one I think that is more likely and that would make sense even for us in the "Real" world is that the the reason why it seems that these villages speciallize on a chakra affinity is because they intermarry in their own villages, and natural selection weeds out those that cannot use the available terrain (i.e. sand in the village of Sand, the sea and rivers in the village of Water) to their fullest potential.

[OneMangakage]

I think that the "evolution theory" behind why people from the village use it's natural element is a good one. That clan who specializes in water based jutsu would live in the hidden sand village isn't hard to consider. However if they are weaker here then they would face the threat of enemy ninja who aren't even as powerful in some respects killing them off I think that instead of this unfortunated fate then a clan would probably just move and resettle in different region or with a different village.

As discussed with the Hyuuga Neji arc. This type of act may be illegal in the ninja world however. The entire clan would become missing-nin and hunted down.

We could suspect however that it would be possible for a village to trade these clans. Trading an entire clan because the two clans would stronger in their new villages might be a real option. Hearing some of the low down things that the village elders have done would anyone be surprised?

[evaki]

Lone_ant, first of all, thank you for this Thread.. I've been reading it but was hesitent to drop in a word..
Actually I'm surprised the Chacra theme wasn't brought up earlier.. It has intrigued me alot as has many other people obviously...
And i like your pseudo-thesis !!! I'm afraid I can't add much to it exept that only hakus and the Wood element blood limit are efficiently explaind by the combainment of two elements... The others must be smthing else.. most likely Ying/Yang or chi manipulation..

Also it's a big question of how Blood line limits are created and waht abilities that requires,
And if the Sharingan can't copy them, but the Sharingan( which is a blood line thing as is the Byakugan) can be stolen by others..
Or even .. DEVELOPEDDD????????~(We'll have to see about that Kakashi Sharingan...)

Byakugan especially, are genetically transfered eyes that see and enable to manipulate Chacra..
AGH!! this is messed up in my head so ~I can;t even convey my own thoughts...
Sorry.. But even if it was just to congratulate you, this post wasn't a total waste!

P.S Lightning was a nice choice of fifth element!! An original pseudo - philosophy by Kishimoto!and he's fitted it in nicely..

Maybe there is a very vague sixth element, not completely concievable or viewable by humans( something equivalent to the aether of the Greeks (which by the way they though it was what made their brain think too..) that results in the SAge of SIX paths..

[voodoochild]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/07/ (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/07/)

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/08/

it explains most kekkai genkai i guess.I'm still not sure about eye techniques tough.

[voodoochild]

double post sorry.

[Franckie]

Maybe there is a very vague sixth element, not completely concievable or viewable by humans( something equivalent to the aether of the Greeks (which by the way they though it was what made their brain think too..) that results in the SAge of SIX paths..

The sixth element, in the Narutoworld, is Yin-Yang. When Jiraiya said Nagato mastered all six 'elements,' he actually used the words 「チャクラの性質変化6通り」, meaning "6 ways of chakra nature transformation".

The five known elements (fire, earth, water. wind, and lightning) are each one way of chakra nature transformation, making five in total. Yamato, while Kakashi explains Naruto about the elements, calls Yin-Yang a chakra nature transformation. This would make it the sixth one.

[evaki]

The sixth element, in the Narutoworld, is Yin-Yang. When Jiraiya said Nagato mastered all six 'elements,' he actually used the words 「チャクラの性質変化6通り」, meaning "6 ways of chakra nature transformation".

The five known elements (fire, earth, water. wind, and lightning) are each one way of chakra nature transformation, making five in total. Yamato, while Kakashi explains Naruto about the elements, calls Yin-Yang a chakra nature transformation. This would make it the sixth one.

Ok, but wouldn't that mean that all our gaps in chakra combination theories that can't -in any way- be atributed to any of the five elements and there combinations.. The're all simply Ying-Yang manipulation???
It doesn't sound too good.. that means the eyes and all the puzzle-Blood lines Are a ying yang combination.. Nah.. I'm not convinced,,,

[Franckie]

Ok, but wouldn't that mean that all our gaps in chakra combination theories that can't -in any way- be atributed to any of the five elements and there combinations.. The're all simply Ying-Yang manipulation???
It doesn't sound too good.. that means the eyes and all the puzzle-Blood lines Are a ying yang combination.. Nah.. I'm not convinced,,,

Yin-Yang deals with things such as Genjutsu, Medical Genjutsu, Kagemane no Jutsu, and Baika no Jutsu as evidenced here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/09/).

[Shinmen Takezo]

Earth defeats Water, Water defeats Fire, Fire defeats Wind, Wind defeats Lightning, Lightning defeats Earth.



This was kinda weird when you link it to Pokemon, it's totally different apart for Fire > Water which is very obvious. I think it's very funny to see anyway.
Lighting > Water > Fire > Earth(Grass) > Water > Earth(Rock/Ground) > Wind(Flying)

[evaki]

Yin-Yang deals with things such as Genjutsu, Medical Genjutsu, Kagemane no Jutsu, and Baika no Jutsu as evidenced here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/09/).

Yes, I remember:)
But I mean can we assume that all inexplicable teqniques are due to a Ying-Yang manipulation WITH an element.. e.g Ying-Yang+ Wind(?) = Byakugan
Ying-Yang+ Fire= Sharingan

Ying Yang + earth(?) = the bone manipulating teqnique
Could Rainengan mean that Ying ang Yang are like a 'glue' that allows all elemnts to tie together and be molded by one?

[Lone_ant]

Meh, thanks evaki =)

Gentic mutations in the DNA allow for the combination of elements, if it was just Yin and Yang, then everyone could do it after some training (then the Ninja Wars would achieve a whole new level of bloodbath and slaughter)

Yes, there is a problem with Physiological Bloodline limits as the elements (if there are any) that compose them are not manifest in the techniques themselves. So Yin and Yang is the sixth element (it would seem that they would make seven but: "Yin and Yang are one." hehe)
Anyway, I think Yin and Yang corresponds to the body, or to human beings. The 5 elements correspond to the environment or the planet, and Yin and Yang would correspond to Life or the body. Yes it all fits together now. Hence, techniques that corespond to the body would be Yin and Yang, and Phsyiological Kekkei Genkai would be Yin and Yang + an Element.

Yes, I think it fits nicely, though other perfectly good theories has been trashed before hehe.

P.S. Did Kishimoto really thought this out in depth like this? It would be funny if we are just making conspiracy theories on what Kishi just picked out intuitively :lol:

[evaki]

YSo Yin and Yang is the sixth element (it would seem that they would make seven but: "Yin and Yang are one." hehe)

Ying/Yang are one, no doubt!! They are two sides of the same thing!! So yeah, it would make a nice sixth 'element'!!:)

P.S. Did Kishimoto really thought this out in depth like this? It would be funny if we are just making conspiracy theories on what Kishi just picked out intuitively :lol:


:p As it has been proven countless times: PROBABLY :mad: To him it's something natural, part of his culture.. Probably naruto world makes sense Naturally.. Things come to him without excausting though...
But Who can resist? I't too much fun!:D

[OneMangakage]

Oh yeah. You know that he thinks of a new part of the story as "Ok that will fill the plot whole of why Sasuke is so pissed at the world."

We rewrite the bible and twelve new sciences about two lines of text just so that we can understand it.

In the end Kishi is probably reading these forums laughing saying "Yin/Yang element? Crazy kids!"

[Lone_ant]

LOl, though it is still fun. After all wouldn't it be amazing to be able to actually influence the manga that you are reading?

Anyway, I want to throw the question of the source of chakra. I mean it has been said that it is Stamina transformed. But the Bijuus are Masses of Chakra given form(othrewise they couldn't be put into people) so these are the Stamina trasformed of What? The Planet? Lifestream 0.o

Also, the Sage of the Six Paths, it seems that he doesn't have any predecessor who has anyform of control on chakra (hence he didn't have any predecessors to build up upon). So could it be that he "discovered" chakra and managed to master all of them sudenly? Even genius ninjas that are formally trained cannot master all of them, so I think he either had contact with Gods or Demons (i.e. the Rinnigan is actually a demon) or, he himself is a Demon or God. Also, the Summon animals(at least the originators) who also know ninjutsu seemed to have learned it from him, so could they be his pets? (<-- though that last part was off-topic)

[rehman1990]

damn...i got the whole def of chakra.....

To perform techniques, ninja need to use their chakra. Chakra comes from two places: (1) the body energy inherent in the trillions of their cells and (2) the mental & spiritual energy gained from exercise and experience. To perform a jutsu, the ninja will bring out and release these two energies. The amount of chakra required for a technique will vary depending upon its size and complexity. Each ninja has the potential to better utilize an elemental Ninjutsu style. For more on elemental chakra and jutsu, click here. For Taijutsu the ninja does not need to necessarily use chakra, as some attacks merely use the stamina required to carry out the attack. For Ninjutsu the ninja's chakra control will determine how much chakra is used on the technique. For ninja with excellent chakra control, they will use the minimum amount with nothing wasted. For ninja with poor chakra control, they will expend more chakra than needed to accomplish their jutsu.

Chakra flows through the body's chakra circulatory system. On a more microscopic level is these channels connecting all the vital points on the body. These small channel pathways travel between the cells of the body. They carry the generated chakra and allow the ninja to mold it. If these channels are severed, it is beyond the ability of even skilled medical ninja to repair. On the large scale the chakra circulatory system travels throughout the body and around the internal organs also responsible for creating chakra. This system includes 361 tenketsu, which are tiny pin points through which the chakra flows. The chakra flow can be increased or decreased by manipulating these tenketsu. The chakra circulatory system is only visible through the use of the Byakugan. The Sharingan can see general chakra flow, but not the internal system itself. The Byakugan and the Hyuuga clan's Juuken (Gentle Fist) attack style allows them to eject their chakra from their hands into the tenketsu of their opponents. This pressure will cause the tenketsu to close and block the flow of chakra. With enough tenketsu closed, the ninja's chakra flow will be almost nothing, eliminating their ability to use jutsu. Also because the system travels throughout the body and around the internal organs, pressure done against the tenketsu will also damage nearby organs. Because a ninja can not train and strengthen their internal organs, such attacks can be devastating.

whereas pain in concerned he seems to have a unique personality which was only known to jiraya and now the frogs knows it and he is going to tell the hokage......he might be a normal ninja...but has master in many techniques and jutsu's...so he could release the pain of people and they dont go through the same transaction in which pain had to go through.....

[Gottheim]

Anyway, I want to throw the question of the source of chakra. I mean it has been said that it is Stamina transformed. But the Bijuus are Masses of Chakra given form(othrewise they couldn't be put into people) so these are the Stamina trasformed of What? The Planet? Lifestream 0.o

Very likely. I know you threw this out like a joke, but the bijuu could be considered as embodiments of life. Every legend has its monsters, that are born along with the world itself. The greek mythology had the titans, among whom Cronus (time) or Pontos (the ocean). Bijuu could be considered as personifications of natural disaster.

Also, the Sage of the Six Paths, it seems that he doesn't have any predecessor who has any form of control on chakra (hence he didn't have any predecessors to build up upon). So could it be that he "discovered" chakra and managed to master all of them sudenly? Even genius ninjas that are formally trained cannot master all of them, so I think he either had contact with Gods or Demons (i.e. the Rinnigan is actually a demon) or, he himself is a Demon or God.

Before the ninja villages, there were several clans that were hired by whoever needed them. Then Hashirama came by and villages were born. Similarly, chakra was like electric current: it always existed, only few people really knew about it and had some kind of control over it. They were, say, shamans, sorcerers for the lucky ones, bad omens, freaks for the unlucky. Then one day some "mutant" was born, with the ability not only to use chakra, but to convert it to each and every one of his whims. The man soon became a legend, and people worldwide came to benefit from his teachings. That man was Rikudou Sennin, and by the time his life came to an end, the shinobi world was born.

By the same time, other people realized they were "mutants" too, and started to regroup and found families, ensuring their anomalies would be transmitted to their offspring, starting new kekkei genkai and instating ninja clans. They were then imitated by people who didn't have bloodline limits but instead specialized in some areas of chakra manipulation like Baika or Kage Shibari.

Also, the Summon animals(at least the originators) who also know ninjutsu seemed to have learned it from him, so could they be his pets? (<-- though that last part was off-topic)

About this my guess is sentient animals like Gamabunta, Manda, Enma or Katsuyu already existed (this is a fantasy world, remember?) and were trained by the Sage or his disciples, and then decided they'd fight alongside humans as long as alliances were concluded. The animals would help whoever signed a contract with them, and in exchange the summoner would perform services for them: think of Manda demanding that Oro prepared 100 human sacrifices for him, and how Jiraya was literally adopted by the Toads as one of their own.

[formbizzle]

Slightly off topic, but the post above reminded me of this. People should take into account that ninja villages have existed for about 80-100 years, i think.
Before that though, ninja's could have existed for any amount of time. At least 20, as Harashima was an adult when he founded Konoha.
But I would expect them to of been around for at least 100 years before that.
This is relevant because the origin of the sage of six paths is the origin of modern ninja, and the whole idea of jutsu's, as he created all of the first ones. But when did he appear, and how did he do such a thing?
That's what I want to know.

[Sephilli]

In the anime, instead of Yin and Yang, it said "Light and Dark" instead, unless it was translated badly. Either way, it may be just that. Light would be attacks like Chouji's growth jutsu, and dark would be the KBNJ or Kage Mane.

I believe KBNJ would also fall under Yin and Yang recomposition, meaning Naruto probably already knows how to do it.

[Sore920]

In the anime, instead of Yin and Yang, it said "Light and Dark" instead, unless it was translated badly. Either way, it may be just that. Light would be attacks like Chouji's growth jutsu, and dark would be the KBNJ or Kage Mane.

I believe KBNJ would also fall under Yin and Yang recomposition, meaning Naruto probably already knows how to do it.

Actually, since Naruto only has the Yang of the Kyuubi, and the Kyuubi can be used to make thousands of little Naruto clones, I'm sure that KBNJ is actually a Yang jutsu.

[Sephilli]

Which is Yin? Was that dark? Or was that Yang?

Either way, "Dark" is probably KBNJ. It wouldn't really make sense if shadows are light now (though, you need light to make shadows, but shaddup).

[Saintkoe]

Which is Yin? Was that dark? Or was that Yang?

Either way, "Dark" is probably KBNJ. It wouldn't really make sense if shadows are light now (though, you need light to make shadows, but shaddup).

Yin represents dark , female, soft, cold, night , closed, well i can keep listing.
Yang represents Light, male. hard, hot, day, open, and well i can keep going here to.

[dragoon-VII]

there such be 7 elements , fire,water,air,earth,holy,dark and time...

[Lone_ant]

there such be 7 elements , fire,water,air,earth,holy,dark and time...

Not in Naruto there is. If you meant Worldly elements, then the Elements of the periodic table apply even if they haven't discovered it.

If you meant chakra elements there are only 6 at the most, as the Sage of the Six Paths attests.

I think KGBJ uses Basic Chakra (i.e. default non-elemental chakra), because prior top his Wind training, he didn't even know that chakra types existed, and it would make him a genius (or bloodline limited) to be able to intuitively use elemental manipulation, which he is not.

Indeed, that is what I meant with Sage of the Six paths, granted that maybe some shamans or sages used chakra, maybe even have a little elemental and spatial manipulation. But to develop it in one lifetime, into the Ninjutsu /Taijutu/ Genjutsu that we know, I say the Sage of the Six paths needed some otherworldly connection.

[Sephilli]

No way. Naruto is dumb enough that he didnt even know that he was using Spatial Recomposition when he was doing his Rasengan, so he probably does a lot of things that he has no idea what they are called or how they actually work.

KBNJ he probably has no idea how it works, he just does it. Kakashi said that Naruto is a "Physical learner".

(if I'm not making sense, ask me tomorrow (see my sig))

[evaki]

@Rehman1990: Meh, thanks for the analytical Def!! To put chakra way of working into an order ;)

As for where it was generated.. Theoretically we all have chakrain our bodies. Training and woirking around it alows people to mold it. This musn't be easy.. We see ninjas doing all kind of cool stuff but remember how card it was to gather chakra to climb a tree or stay on top of the water..
At some point, a more power hungry person, or more in tuned with his body, discovered this 'force' trained to be able to use it!
As for the bijuus .. An maze of chakra hurtling in an animal form.. hmm well,
my thought are: it is either a mythical animal, as old as the beggining of time9 in wich case, we take it as a granted thing that hasn't been explained yet (scientist have found what went on from 10(raised in -43) sec after the big Bang and onwards:P)
Or it is the consentration of chakra generating not from humans, but from nature elements and animals (thus the animal form) that at first were unstable balls of energy, forming and deformingbut after beeing formed, developed a character. .. Why nine though? and why tailed? and why is their power climaxed.. ?? Could their existance be linked to the birth of bloodlimits and other extraordinary display of Chakra control??

[Lone_ant]

Apparently, in the New Naruto Chapters we get a new power source of techniques.

The Sage Techniques use Natural Energy from the surroundings to powerup the user's Chakra.

The Difference in Ninja Techniques and Sage Techniques:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/409/11/

What Exactly is Natural Energy:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/409/13/

So either Narural Energy is the various physical enerygies found in the environment, such potential energy, lightning, heat etc..

Or an alternative explanation is that this is the Background World Chakra of which the Bijuus are concentrated sentient manifestations of. This would explain the Bijuus of course.

[YellowFlash]

Would be really cool if naruto had like a time element or hurricane that would make him unique.

Anyways im guessing thie sage techniques will boost naruto in chakra and maybe help him control it more. Cause if naruto masters chakra control hes like unbeatable

[statcat]

there such be 7 elements , fire,water,air,earth,holy,dark and time...
its just wind,earth,water,fire and lightning

Not in Naruto there is. If you meant Worldly elements, then the Elements of the periodic table apply even if they haven't discovered it.

If you meant chakra elements there are only 6 at the most, as the Sage of the Six Paths attests.

I think KGBJ uses Basic Chakra (i.e. default non-elemental chakra), because prior top his Wind training, he didn't even know that chakra types existed, and it would make him a genius (or bloodline limited) to be able to intuitively use elemental manipulation, which he is not.

Indeed, that is what I meant with Sage of the Six paths, granted that maybe some shamans or sages used chakra, maybe even have a little elemental and spatial manipulation. But to develop it in one lifetime, into the Ninjutsu /Taijutu/ Genjutsu that we know, I say the Sage of the Six paths needed some otherworldly connection.

You really don't know what time period naruto takes place in considering they had walkie talkies when they rescued that cat.

[Jinchuuriki]

Would be really cool if naruto had like a time element or hurricane that would make him unique.

Anyways im guessing thie sage techniques will boost naruto in chakra and maybe help him control it more. Cause if naruto masters chakra control hes like unbeatable

I think a hurricane jutsu is something that Naruto will have in the future.

[Raijuu]

its just wind,earth,water,fire and lightning

They did mention something about Light and Dark elements back when Naruto was doing his training... it seems it is those jutsus like the shadow techniques Shikamaru uses and the body techniques Choji uses... maybe even Kagebunshin.

[Slycoz]

Naruto has Kyuubi's Yang chakra, which is the light side of it. I'm pretty sure this has something to do with Naruto's inability to use Bunshin (Light Manipulation) and his affinity with the Kage Bunshin (Dark Maipulation). Maybe Kyuubi's chakra interfered everytime he attempted to use the Bunshin, or something.

[Sore920]

Naruto has Kyuubi's Yang chakra, which is the light side of it. I'm pretty sure this has something to do with Naruto's inability to use Bunshin (Light Manipulation) and his affinity with the Kage Bunshin (Dark Maipulation). Maybe Kyuubi's chakra interfered everytime he attempted to use the Bunshin, or something.

No, because he's used the former before.

He just wasn't skilled enough to pull it off.

[Decorus]

Yin and Yang chakra manipulation are a different sort of Elemental Chakra recomposition.
Yin is used for things like Shikamaru's shadow techniques.
Yang is used for things like Medical Ninjutsu and Body Manipulation techniques.

The Sage Arts add an additional power source to existing jutsu or physical abilities. Jiraiya used it to create his Ultimate Rasengan and Deep Fryer jutsu. You basicly add additional power to existing abilities kinda like a turbocharger.

[Raugiah]

Decorus, how sure are you that that's actually true about those Yin and Yang? Because it sounds really probable, but is there any proof from manga or anime that it's indeed that way?

Also, what was that Deep Fryer Jutsu?

[Decorus]

Sigh why don't people pay attention and actually read the manga?
Its not my job to look up every single page and post it for people who just like to look at the pretty pictures.

The yin and yang chakra manipulation comes from a question Naruto asks while Kakashi is explaining elemental recomposition to him.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/09/

Deep Fryer is one of the attacks Jiraiya uses while in Hermit Mode.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/16/

All Senjutsu does is enhance existing abilities as you see here so people who want Naruto to suddenly learn new techniques will be sorely disapointed, but honestly do you really want to get hit by Ultimate Fuuton:Rasengan or fight Hermit Arts Tajuu Kage Bunshin (God knows what Senjutsu will do to Kage Bunshin)...

[Vaizard21]

Sigh why don't people pay attention and actually read the manga?
Its not my job to look up every single page and post it for people who just like to look at the pretty pictures.

The yin and yang chakra manipulation comes from a question Naruto asks while Kakashi is explaining elemental recomposition to him.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/09/

Deep Fryer is one of the attacks Jiraiya uses while in Hermit Mode.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/16/

All Senjutsu does is enhance existing abilities as you see here so people who want Naruto to suddenly learn new techniques will be sorely disapointed, but honestly do you really want to get hit by Ultimate Fuuton:Rasengan or fight Hermit Arts Tajuu Kage Bunshin (God knows what Senjutsu will do to Kage Bunshin)...

'DM: On':ninja:

Alright, alright folks, there's no need to be rude while putting your point across.

Anyway, I do agree with Decorus, Naruto's Kage Bunshin's all using Senjutsu might even be enough to beat Pein. But, thats unlikely because Kishi will probably milk the current state of affairs as much as he can...

If Jiraiya had enough chakra to make Hermit mode Kage Bunshins I think he would've beat Pein... imo.

[lucaz]

'DM: On':ninja:

Alright, alright folks, there's no need to be rude while putting your point across.

Anyway, I do agree with Decorus, Naruto's Kage Bunshin's all using Senjutsu might even be enough to beat Pein. But, thats unlikely because Kishi will probably milk the current state of affairs as much as he can...

If Jiraiya had enough chakra to make Hermit mode Kage Bunshins I think he would've beat Pein... imo.

Naruto's kage bunshin will never be enough to beat Pein, not even with using the power of all life with Senjutsu. Look at the fight against Kimimaro, he couldn't even lay a finger on him with a thousand clones.
He may have grown stronger but kage bunshin won't help him beat Pein.

I'd actually be disappointed if Naruto won against Pein.
It's shounen but how can an inexperienced (not very talented) kid win against a very experienced supertalented ninja with rinnegan?

That sounds quite impossible.

[Vaizard21]

Naruto's kage bunshin will never be enough to beat Pein, not even with using the power of all life with Senjutsu. Look at the fight against Kimimaro, he couldn't even lay a finger on him with a thousand clones.
He may have grown stronger but kage bunshin won't help him beat Pein.

I'd actually be disappointed if Naruto won against Pein.
It's shounen but how can an inexperienced (not very talented) kid win against a very experienced supertalented ninja with rinnegan?

That sounds quite impossible.

You know as well as I do that it'll happen. You know this because its happened before, no?

Naruto has always beaten people that are supposedly stronger than him.

Naruto was quite inexperienced when he fought Kimimaro, he's much more mature in battle, now. After this training, I truly think he'll be able to take on Pein (It might not happen, but I think he'll be able to). Remember that its Kage Bunshins with Senjutsu... I don't think anyone could deny that if Jiraiya had just one clone when he was fighting Pein, that he would've won... Hands down.

Hermit mode (for each) + Clones = win.

[lucaz]

You know as well as I do that it'll happen. You know this because its happened before, no?

Naruto has always beaten people that are supposedly stronger than him.

Naruto was quite inexperienced when he fought Kimimaro, he's much more mature in battle, now. After this training, I truly think he'll be able to take on Pein (It might not happen, but I think he'll be able to). Remember that its Kage Bunshins with Senjutsu... I don't think anyone could deny that if Jiraiya had just one clone when he was fighting Pein, that he would've won... Hands down.

Hermit mode (for each) + Clones = win.

I'd be very disappointed if that's how he's going to win.
As Naruto is now, even when he will have mastered Senjutsu, he won't be able to beat Pein. he won't have a slightest chance.

It's true Jiraiya would have won when he had made a clone in hermit mode but that doesn't mean Naruto will. Jiraiya was without a doubt the strongest ninja of the leaf village. Kakashi isn't that strong as him and neither is Tsunade.

If Naruto learns the hermit mode he'll still be inexperienced with that battle mode, Jiraiya had many many years to ultimate his powers and still he lost.

I believe if Naruto would fight again against Kimimaro like he's now and he still won't be able to beat him.

[Vaizard21]

I'd be very disappointed if that's how he's going to win.
As Naruto is now, even when he will have mastered Senjutsu, he won't be able to beat Pein. he won't have a slightest chance.

It's true Jiraiya would have won when he had made a clone in hermit mode but that doesn't mean Naruto will. Jiraiya was without a doubt the strongest ninja of the leaf village. Kakashi isn't that strong as him and neither is Tsunade.

If Naruto learns the hermit mode he'll still be inexperienced with that battle mode, Jiraiya had many many years to ultimate his powers and still he lost.

I believe if Naruto would fight again against Kimimaro like he's now and he still won't be able to beat him.

Yup, what I'm saying is that Naruto will probably become the strongest... As you said, Tsunade's isn't really all that amazing, and Kakashi already reckons Naruto is stronger than he is. Naruto's sheer chakra stamina will enable him to win against Pein, the inexperience isn't really all that much of a problem. Plus 'Papa toad' (Forgot his name) will probably tell Naruto all about Pein (from his fight with Jiraiya) before Naruto fights. In all instances he'll be going in with more chakra stamina, more knowledge about Pein and as many techniques as Jiraiya.

The point you made about Jiraiya being way more experienced isn't that significant either (Middle):

http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000376/01.jpg

Therefore we can presume that Jiraiya wasn't able to fully utilise Hermit mode, regardless of how old he was. Which sort of implies he didn't frequently need to get that serious in previous battles, either that or he was just plain rubbish at Hermit mode.

I don't agree with that last Kimimaro part either. One shot of that Fuuton Rasen Shuriken and skeleton boy would be out for the count.

http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000339/16-17.jpg

/Is getting frustrated from everyone thinking Jiraiya is some god... All he had was what you saw when he was still alive... Nothing less, nothing more... Unless any of you have any empirical evidence that states otherwise, I really don't see why you think he had more (and yes, less) jutsu's than what we saw in the manga.

[Decorus]

What you don't seem to get is Senjutsu will enhance Kage Bunshin to create some new super clone technique, as well as all of the clones being in hermit mode.... All of them will be super enhanced physically by the Hermit mode and on top of that will be super charged Senjutsu created clones. Think of it as a force multiplier. Senjutsu took Rasengan and turned it into a spirit bomb. I can't imagine what the Senjutsu version of Kage Bunshin will be like. (Okay I can.)

Well its likely Jiraiya knew more jutsu then he used (Actually we know he has some super stealth jutsu he uses for peeping) I don't think he had more combat related jutsu. He had knowledge of sealing techniques and he very likely did not use all of his frog summons in the Pein fight.

Kimmero wiped the floor with Naruto's Kage Bunshin because pre time skip Naruto had mediocre hand to hand combat skills which meant he tended to try and overwhelm his opponent to make up for his poor taijutsu. Post Timeskip Naruto has improved dramaticly in this area able to keep up with Kakashi.

Pein is not supertalented. He's a bunch of corpses with individual unique abilities that fight in a coordinated way. Pein himself can not use Rinnegan its being used to animate and control the corpses that is the extent of Rinnegan used by Pein. Pein might be the leader of the Akatsuki, but he is not the main villain of Naruto. More then likely that is Madara the puppetmaster pulling the Akatsuki's strings. Jiraiya was actually stronger then Pein, but Pein won because of his superior numbers and the fact that Jiraiya assumed the fight was over when he killed the 3 Peins he was fighting.

The best way to beat Pein is to split up the different bodies and eliminate them one at a time. This is something Naruto can do alone, there is no one else who can do that.

[Raugiah]

The problem is that if Jiraiya had used kage bunshin, he would've split up his chakra into two or more, thus making every clone weaker than his whole self. That's the problem with clones, the more clones, the weaker they become, and that's why overwhelming Kimimaro didn't work. One strong guy can hold up against an awful lot of weaker guys (well, in Ninja-world that is). So in fact, if Jiraiya would have used clones, he wouldn't have won, he would've been defeated earlier.

Also, Naruto will probably surpass Jiraiya in the fact that he'll be able to pull off hermit mode on his own in the end. Just like he surpassed his father (in one way) by completing the fuuton rasengan and Kakashi in a way by being able to train with 1000 clones.

Kakashi's problem is that he's kinda done developing now that he's got his MS. I don't think his combat strength will increase much, unless he gets some new MS-techniques next to his dimension-hole no jutsu.

[Decorus]

Umm Kage Bunshin aren't weaker then the original. I have no idea where that silly concept came into your head. Kage Bunshin have the exact same physical traits as the original how ever the chakra of the user is spread evenly between them. Jiraiya used Frog Clones as opposed to Kage Bunshin.

Naruto's clones were demolished by Kimmero, because Kimmero was that much more skilled in Taijutsu then Naruto. Kimmero was more skilled then Rock Lee was, although Rock Lee as a Drunken Fist User was superior to Kimmero. Jiraiya did not use clones and can not use clones like Naruto. Naruto has proven his clones are no longer quite so easy to defeat in Taijutsu as evidenced by how long they lasted against Kakuzu.

[Gottheim]

@Decorus
As you've said yourself, Kage Bunshin splits the caster's chakra evenly among each individual. So three Naruto (the real one included) will have only one third of the original's initial chakra pool. So Raugiah's right, the more clones he makes the weaker they get. That encompasses only the chakra pool, however. All other skills remain untouched, and as long as a clone has enough chakra, there's no technique it can't do.

[Raugiah]

Now you've been proven wrong some times in my favour, Decorus, would you please stop telling me I'm a unknowing noob, when I'm actually right!

The point is: Kimimaro was better anyways, so Naruto thought he'd make lots of clones, and land even one punch on him by overwhelming him, which is of course the purpose of Kage Bunshin. He made so many, that one punch or kick was enough to diminish them, them having lower chakra.
When against Kakuzu, he didn't make as much clones, therefore, they have more chakra each, therefore, they last longer each.

[GameKing505]

I think we're overlooking an incredibly important aspect of chakra (but I could be wrong since I didn't read the whole thread). When Tsunade introduced her genesis rebirth technique, she said that she stored chakra in her seal, and released it to heal her cells. The technique was dangerous since it shortened her lifespan, but what if chakra could be stored for use in non-dangerous techniques?

If it is possible to store chakra over time, why aren't more ninjas doing it? It would be possible to store enough to make a huge summoning, or a giant chakra blast, or something that isn't dangerous to the user. Just because you can store it in a seal doesn't mean that it needs to be used for regeneration.

Plothole?

Here is the technique for you guys to check it out:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/169/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/169/16/

[Jinchuuriki]

I think we're overlooking an incredibly important aspect of chakra (but I could be wrong since I didn't read the whole thread). When Tsunade introduced her genesis rebirth technique, she said that she stored chakra in her seal, and released it to heal her cells. The technique was dangerous since it shortened her lifespan, but what if chakra could be stored for use in non-dangerous techniques?

If it is possible to store chakra over time, why aren't more ninjas doing it? It would be possible to store enough to make a huge summoning, or a giant chakra blast, or something that isn't dangerous to the user. Just because you can store it in a seal doesn't mean that it needs to be used for regeneration.

Plothole?

Here is the technique for you guys to check it out:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/169/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/169/16/

Well Tsunade wasn't fighting all of that time, she was off gambling, so she really didn't need to use her chakra much. Most ninja are normally in battle or training and they don't have the time or the amount of chakra necessary to set aside for later use. As she said, she had bee gathering her chakra "for quite some time".

[ken10185]

or perhaps other ninja dont now how to store chackra, the ability was developed by tsunade so it would mean that only she could store chacka in that same seal...

and the other thing is very few ninja have huge amounts of chackra, so they cant have any extra to spare since as said by Jinchuuriki they are always on missions

[Real Youkai]

The Kyuubi started to lend his chakra without the knowledge or consent of Naruto. Because he (Naruto) commented "What's this feeling? It's like i'm on fire." That's the Kyuubi's chakra at work. Remember the Kyuubi's chakra is Fire-Based so that comment that Naruto made would support that Kyuubi was lending his chakra without Naruto knowing about it.
And to through this out there since Naruto's chakra type is Wind wouldn't that make the Kyuubi's chakra stronger?

When does the manga state that the Kyuubi's chakra has an affinity to fire? I've never read anything besides that "like I'm on fire" line that even suggests a fire-based Kyuubi.

[Decorus]

Explain how they are weaker in Naruto's case. Naruto makes 3 kage bunshin and each of them have as much chakra as Kakashi. In theory accessing Kyuubi's chakra he can make 99 clones and still have as much chakra as Kakashi. Since Naruto is fighting using Kage Bunshin and not really using chakra while he is fighting he doesn't get any weaker. Kage Bunshin gives advantages for using multiple Kage Bunshin at once. Keep in mind the Physical abilities of Kage Bunshin are the same as the original. So once again Kage Bunshin does not weaken the user. Look how the 3rd used Kage Bunshin to eliminate the two hokages was he weakened in that fight by using Kage Bunshin? He couldn't win any other way.

Naruto's Kage Bunshin are destroyed with a single hit usually so less chakra does not diminish them in any way shape or form. The only difference between Naruto's Kage Bunshin fighting Kakuzu and Naruto's Kage Bunshin vrs Kimmero is Naruto's Taijutsu has improved allowing them to survive for a longer period with out getting hit.

[Filip The Great]

@Decorus you have 2 people + me going against you and still you
state that Kage Bunshin doesn't weaken the user

WELL IT DOES WEAKEN THE USER.. I'm going to find the chapters
where that is explained. The Only thing that keeps Naruto strong even when using
Bunshin is his unnatural amount of chakra because of the Kyuubi...

When 1 kage bunshin is created Then it has one half of the normal chakra and naruto has the other half (Remember Normal Chakra not Kyuubis cuz naruto only uses kyuubi from time to time)

>But since naruto has almost perfected his Bunshin technique he can control the amount
of chacra given to the bunshin....< But i'm not sure bout this

[Decorus]

Nothing you have stated has indicated any form of weakness in Naruto. He has less chakra, gee like having his chakra split evenly amid Shadow Clones does anything to Naruto...

The amount of chakra in the shadow clones has nothing to do with how physically strong or how much damage they can take.

What your confusing with Kage Bunshin are Water Clones where each clone has only 10% of the strength of the original user.

Kage Bunshin would be useless for training purposes if they weren't exact physical duplicates of Naruto.

In most circumstances if Naruto was fighting an equally skilled Ninja using Kage Bunshin would give him vast superiority over his opponent. In the case of Neji, Kimmero and Sasuke they were all vastly more skilled in Taijutsu then Naruto and could easily take them all out.

Its fairly silly to claim that Naruto without Shadow clones is weaker then Naruto with.

By the way Naruto has used Kyuubi Chakra precisely 3 times in the entire series.
1. To Summon Gamabunta while falling to his death.
2. To fight Neji after Neji blocked all his Tenketsu
3. To stop Gaara after running out of chakra.

Thats the only times Naruto has actively used Kyuubi chakra every other occasion its been Kyuubi giving his chakra to Naruto or Kyuubi's chakra leaking out due to Naruto's emotional state ie Naruto being pissed off at someone or something.

The average Ninja would be weakened by using Multiple Kage Bunshin due to the fact they have average Ninja chakra pools and Average Ninja stamina.

Naruto has an insanely high amount of chakra and ungodly stamina. Using 5, 6 or even 1000 Kage Bunshin at one time does not significantly weaken Naruto.

Also you might want to sit down read my posts and then comment.

[Lone_ant]

We are talking about Kage Bunshin as a Technique in and of itself right? Not as how a sepcific character utilizes it.

Kage Bunshin does weaken the user: testament to that is how Kakashi can't do more than 1 or 2 copies because it splits up the chakra evenly. Splitting the chakra means that the original has less chakra to work with. Thats why we don't get too many characters spamming this technique, even Akatsuki and Kages don't use this technique too much.

Now Naruto can utilize this technique over and over,.. and over because of his near Infinite chakra capacity because he has a bijuu in him. Nevertheless, it's still quite wastefull, buyt he can get away with it.., it's his fighting style anyway.

Naruto has been using the Fox's chakra,. well,.. the first document use of it is the thousand clones to save Iruka (basically the first episode). Kyuubi Chakra is linked to his Chakra circulatory system so he unconsciously uses it even without the knowledge of the beast within (plus, some of it has already merged with his Chakra and became his by this time).

Moreover in addition to those times that you mentioned (where Red Chakra appears around Naruto) Red Chakra has also appeared a number of times after the time skip (actually a great number of times).

Update on Sage Techniques. apparently Sage techniques use Natural Energy combined with the User's Chakra to make a new Chakra type,. the Sage Chakra. To do this, equal measures of Natural Energy + Spiritual + Physical are recquired.

[Filip The Great]

@Decorus...
See you even you are saying kage bunshin weakens the user

"The average Ninja would be weakened by using Multiple Kage Bunshin due to the fact they have average Ninja chakra pools and Average Ninja stamina." -->That's what you said

Not only the average Ninja is weakened.... naruto is weakened too even if we dont see
it cuz of his Masice amount of chakra...

Chakra is Spiritual and PHYSICAL strength.........
So if you have less chakra you get tiered (Kakashi using his MS drains alot of chakra
and puts him into hospital) The same thing with Bunshin, more clones= Less chakra
in each of them

But after naruto's chakra is getting lower Kyuubis chakra comes out and
naruto is replenished..... So we don't see weakness but actually the clones
weaken him, but give him the advantage cuz he can see and attack and even defend himself from different directions

[Gottheim]

@Decorus
Kage Bunshin makes exact copies alright. Those copies can do everything the original can do, provided they have enough chakra left. The problem is, the more clones you make, the less chakra you have. So let's say Naruto has 10 chakra points. Rasengan takes 1 points per use. Naruto alone will be able to use it ten times. Now if he makes nine clones, there'll be 10 of them, with one point of chakra each. They will all have enough power left for one rasengan. Because no matter how high the caster's chakra is, it still gets divided.
Now as said above, Kyuubi allows Naruto to "cheat", in that his clones are many, and his chakra pool is so high each clone still has plenty of energy left.

[kaeruu]

@Decorus
Kage Bunshin makes exact copies alright. Those copies can do everything the original can do, provided they have enough chakra left. The problem is, the more clones you make, the less chakra you have. So let's say Naruto has 10 chakra points. Rasengan takes 1 points per use. Naruto alone will be able to use it ten times. Now if he makes nine clones, there'll be 10 of them, with one point of chakra each. They will all have enough power left for one rasengan. Because no matter how high the caster's chakra is, it still gets divided.
Now as said above, Kyuubi allows Naruto to "cheat", in that his clones are many, and his chakra pool is so high each clone still has plenty of energy left.

Precisely. But I agree on Decorus that Naruto isn't a wimp, only that. It's silly to say that Bunshins don't have an effect on Naruto; it's plainly seen that he faints on overuse. Though I'm quite sure that Naruto's limit isn't 10 rasengans, I'm sure that what you actually meant was true: that indeed Naruto still has a limit. An unfairly huge stamina, yes, but not infinite.

[Gottheim]

@kaeruu
I never meant Naruto was a weakling or anything like that. And the ten rasengan thing was merely a simplified example. I have no clue how many of them Naruto can do per day, if he has a limit at all.

[kaeruu]

@kaeruu
I never meant Naruto was a weakling or anything like that. And the ten rasengan thing was merely a simplified example. I have no clue how many of them Naruto can do per day, if he has a limit at all.

I know. I have full trust in you that you know things as simple as Naruto being NOT a wimp, and Naruto being able to do more Rasengans than that. I'm sorry if you misunderstood it to be such. Peace!

[Filip The Great]

Hey maybe this will sound stupid but what if Naruto could fly.
Like in Avatar. He has wind chakra and so he can levitate for a period of time.
(I've only see like the first 20 or 30 eps so I don't know what happens after that)

If he were able to create a wind ball but not destructive(rasen-shuriken)
He could lift him self up like a Jet plane..

What do you think?

And nice point there we finally proved him wrong and I hope he admits cuz
i cant explain any more.....(About the Kage Bunshin)

[Gottheim]

@kaeruu
It's I didn't take offense. I was just taking out the possibilities of misunderstandings.:)

@Filip
Flying requires wings or a winged mount. Naruto might be able to move in the air using some tornado no jutsu, but that would be chakra consuming, and wasting chakra is the last thing you need, even if you share your body with a living nuclear plant.

[drunkenking]

Hey maybe this will sound stupid but what if Naruto could fly.
Like in Avatar. He has wind chakra and so he can levitate for a period of time.
(I've only see like the first 20 or 30 eps so I don't know what happens after that)

If he were able to create a wind ball but not destructive(rasen-shuriken)
He could lift him self up like a Jet plane..

What do you think?

And nice point there we finally proved him wrong and I hope he admits cuz
i cant explain any more.....(About the Kage Bunshin)

First, I would like to say, OMG YOU HAVE TO FINISH WATCHING AVATAR THE 4-PART FINALE WAS AMAZING:lol:

Erhm, back to naruto. That would be a great idea, except in the naruto world, even if you have wind'type chakra, you can't just control it willy nilly like in avatar. Sure you can control it, but it requires a lot of concentration and control, and i doubt Naruto will get enough chakra control to fly in the air.

[Lone_ant]

@kaeruu
It's I didn't take offense. I was just taking out the possibilities of misunderstandings.:)

@Filip
Flying requires wings or a winged mount. Naruto might be able to move in the air using some tornado no jutsu, but that would be chakra consuming, and wasting chakra is the last thing you need, even if you share your body with a living nuclear plant.

Lol. that is the best analogy of the fox that I have read yet.

Well. Flying.. no. It would be chakra wasteful to directly manipulate air to fly (if he can, I mean, Naruto isn't the most talented ninja in chakra manipulation, but he does learn fast). A good work around would be what Deidara did.

About the Sage mode. It utilizes Natural Energy (sunlight, potential energy of an apple, etc..) to basically create Chakra out of thin air.

Natural Energy > (Sage Mode) > Chakra (added to user chakra)

Now it seems that too much of this "Natural" Chakra is bad. And to be efficient has to be 50/50 (or in Naruto's case 33.33 Nature/33.33 His/33.33 Bijuu) in relation to the other Chakras present.

I think this is because what is being used is World Chakra. i.e. Chakra from another thing. The same way that the Bijuu chakra on another human is detrimental (to the point of being a poison), too much Natural Chakra and the World starts to take over you.

What do you guy think about my understanding of Sannin mode?

[akamaru]

Lol. that is the best analogy of the fox that I have read yet.

Well. Flying.. no. It would be chakra wasteful to directly manipulate air to fly (if he can, I mean, Naruto isn't the most talented ninja in chakra manipulation, but he does learn fast). A good work around would be what Deidara did.

About the Sage mode. It utilizes Natural Energy (sunlight, potential energy of an apple, etc..) to basically create Chakra out of thin air.

Natural Energy > (Sage Mode) > Chakra (added to user chakra)

Now it seems that too much of this "Natural" Chakra is bad. And to be efficient has to be 50/50 (or in Naruto's case 33.33 Nature/33.33 His/33.33 Bijuu) in relation to the other Chakras present.

I think this is because what is being used is World Chakra. i.e. Chakra from another thing. The same way that the Bijuu chakra on another human is detrimental (to the point of being a poison), too much Natural Chakra and the World starts to take over you.

What do you guy think about my understanding of Sannin mode?

Actually it's more like 33% Natural, 33% Spiritual, and 33% Physical. It doesn't have anything to do with Kyuubi chakra.

Also, it's Sennin (hermit) not Sannin. Jiriaya, Tsunade, and Oro are Sannin's, which mean legendary 3.

[WOTG]

Actually it's more like 33% Natural, 33% Spiritual, and 33% Physical. It doesn't have anything to do with Kyuubi chakra.

Also, it's Sennin (hermit) not Sannin. Jiriaya, Tsunade, and Oro are Sannin's, which mean legendary 3.

Pointless Correction:

Sannin is short for Three Ninja. "The Legendary" is like an add on to their name.
It can be said, "Densetsu no Sannin", translation, "The Legendary 3 Ninja".

[itachi93wisp]

well ... i think your theory is actually very precise and acurate ... but i think that ninjutsu is more complex. the charkra manipulation has to be taken to acord aswell ... ninjustsu involves alot of chakra manupulation ... take mystical ice mirrors, fire phinix jutsu and ater dragon jutsu for example ... is said by the toads ... there are three forms of enegy of which chakra can be dirived from... natural energy, physical energy and spiritual energy - this is another point to be taken .... so chakra is more complex and goes into the feild of micro biology if e keep discussin g this .. e'll soon find and element that can produces chakra type propeties and we'll be awarded the nobel peice prize ... *joke* xD!!!

[itachi93wisp]

firstly ... is called sage mode ... sannin is sage mode in one word ... ;) ... i think that its clever how they've equipt great power and a great price ... this also lead another theory of how this world could have been created (in naruto) maybe the land of ninjas was creared by the unstable control of natural energy wich soon saught to create small life forms hich can cantrol energy better then the earthly bodies ... (rocks and trees) also those creatures found ne a diffrent forms of energy which they saughts to use and combine .. creativity ... neways about the first topic .. sage mode. yeah i just lost everything i was about say.... xD!!!

[Aurora]

well ... i think your theory is actually very precise and acurate ... but i think that ninjutsu is more complex. the charkra manipulation has to be taken to acord aswell ... ninjustsu involves alot of chakra manupulation ... take mystical ice mirrors, fire phinix jutsu and ater dragon jutsu for example ... is said by the toads ... there are three forms of enegy of which chakra can be dirived from... natural energy, physical energy and spiritual energy - this is another point to be taken .... so chakra is more complex and goes into the feild of micro biology if e keep discussin g this .. e'll soon find and element that can produces chakra type propeties and we'll be awarded the nobel peice prize ... *joke* xD!!!

firstly ... is called sage mode ... sannin is sage mode in one word ... ;) ... i think that its clever how they've equipt great power and a great price ... this also lead another theory of how this world could have been created (in naruto) maybe the land of ninjas was creared by the unstable control of natural energy wich soon saught to create small life forms hich can cantrol energy better then the earthly bodies ... (rocks and trees) also those creatures found ne a diffrent forms of energy which they saughts to use and combine .. creativity ... neways about the first topic .. sage mode. yeah i just lost everything i was about say.... xD!!!

FIrstly, you ought to avoid double posting.
C:
Use the edit button~

Anyway, getting back on topic, Sage = Sennin, as stated above by Akamaru and co.
Senjutsu= Sage techniques
The legendary Sannin is the name given to the 'three' highly skilled village ninja of Kage level, who were not necessarily Sennin or Kages of any villages.As stated above by WOTG, the only legendary Sannin were Tsunade, Oro and Jiraiya.
San = three in the japanese
Nin= Ninjas
They were given the prestigous title after they battled Hanzou, the Mizukage at that time.

[Opportunist]

Tell me if I am wrong, what do you guys think.

I've notice that in the manga, everyone with a KKG and part of the requirement for a KKG is having a large chakra pool to go with it too. From the perspective of konoha anyway. At somepoint in the Manga all the KKG clans have been said to have large chakra pool. Naruto doesn't apply b/c of the Fox.

Now, all the Large bodied ppl in the Manga, seem to have a large chakra pool, Orochimaru-J-man-Kisame-Kakuzu-Zabuza.

So, I'm wondering.....after looking at the Raikage's build....Might he be the most powerful Kage ? and after seeing killerbee saying only his brother has been able to block or counter his attacks, Might he be able to even rival a Jinjurikui.

I don't see him being taken out so easily.

[Watashi]

FIrstly, you ought to avoid double posting.
C:
Use the edit button~

Anyway, getting back on topic, Sage = Sennin, as stated above by Akamaru and co.
Senjutsu= Sage techniques
The legendary Sannin is the name given to the 'three' highly skilled village ninja of Kage level, who were not necessarily Sennin or Kages of any villages.As stated above by WOTG, the only legendary Sannin were Tsunade, Oro and Jiraiya.
San = three in the japanese
Nin= Ninjas
They were given the prestigous title after they battled Hanzou, the Mizukage at that time.


I know its not the point of this thread, but you corrected it wrong.
Sannin doesnt mean the three ninjas. It just means three persons.
Thats the reason that you hear it quite often in other anime, that do not deal with ninjas ^^

[Jinchuuriki]

I know its not the point of this thread, but you corrected it wrong.
Sannin doesnt mean the three ninjas. It just means three persons.
Thats the reason that you hear it quite often in other anime, that do not deal with ninjas ^^

San = 3
Nin = ninja

Sannin = 3 Ninja

[CasaHouse]

San = 3
Nin = ninja

Sannin = 3 Ninja

Your logic would be bulletproof if the "Nin" didn't directly translate to, (and use the kanji for) "person". In this instance though, since the series uses "Nin" as a contraction of ninja, it works both ways. The most literal translation would probably just be "The Legendary Three." because when talking about people, we don't need to repeat the word "people" every time we state a number.

The literal translation of the word is "Three people." but since "Nin" is also a contraction for ninja, Kishi decided to make it a pun. Proof that puns ruin everything. Can we stop the bickering now?

[Watashi]

I didnt know that the nin in ninja means person,
about the pun, I think its funny^^

Also there was something bugging me about the taijutsu style neji uses.
It says that he can see the inner chakra system and these chakra
points all over the body and that he can disturb and even destroy them.
So I wonder, why do I have to see those things in order to destroy them?
For example you can cut a vein with a knive, without seeing it from the outside.
If you are able to get into this reach of your opponentand able to land hits,
wouldnt there be equally strong techniques without seeing those vessels?
I mean, in the chuunin exam, neji hit naruto like 64 times and he was still able to stand up.
So I think it is quite overrated. (if it would work like it was first described in the manga, naruto internal organs would have been destroyed and he woould have died for sure)

(Also about this ultimate defense where he emits chakra out of his whole body,
I dont think that this is possible, he would be out of chakra in an instant. You just have to compare it to other techniques.)

[CasaHouse]

I didnt know that the nin in ninja means person,
about the pun, I think its funny^^

I don't know the kanji for ninja, so I can't say that it does, but I do know that "Sannin" means three people, and Kishi just loves the sound of "nin."

[Yoshimo Izoto]

Really CasaHouse, you could be right and wrong, but it's all according to the kanji he used for Sannin if he used the kanji three (not gonna link that you know what it looks like), and then this kanji, then you're right.
http://japanese.about.com/library/blkod41.htm

I'm not a japanese master in any way, but I wouldn't say its a "pun". There's different ways you can say it with the on and kun readings.

[CasaHouse]

I call it a pun, because he's using the sound to make a ninja reference. "Sannin" is a word, meaning three people, but instead of "People" he's playing "Nin" to mean Ninja, and create his own word for "Three ninja".

[Yoshimo Izoto]

Ahhh, I see.

[Lone_ant]

I didnt know that the nin in ninja means person,
about the pun, I think its funny^^

Also there was something bugging me about the taijutsu style neji uses.
It says that he can see the inner chakra system and these chakra
points all over the body and that he can disturb and even destroy them.
So I wonder, why do I have to see those things in order to destroy them?
For example you can cut a vein with a knive, without seeing it from the outside.
If you are able to get into this reach of your opponentand able to land hits,
wouldnt there be equally strong techniques without seeing those vessels?
I mean, in the chuunin exam, neji hit naruto like 64 times and he was still able to stand up.
So I think it is quite overrated. (if it would work like it was first described in the manga, naruto internal organs would have been destroyed and he woould have died for sure)

(Also about this ultimate defense where he emits chakra out of his whole body,
I dont think that this is possible, he would be out of chakra in an instant. You just have to compare it to other techniques.)

Apparently they need to be hit precisely to be affected, or as to affect them, you inject the chakra that you emit out of your palms or fingers ~ think of it as threading a needle so to speak, brute force wouldn't work, rather accuracy and delicacy is needed. This is more consistent with the Hyuuga Gentle Fist fighting style too.

As for the defensive maneuver "Kaiten" well it does indeed use up a large amount of chakra, but since Neiji is a Taijutsu specialist his other techniques use only a minimal amount of chakra so I think it's pretty balanced. Moreover, Kaiten is more of a "last resort" technique if nothing else will do, after all Neiji's style is more attack oriented anyway and hence this technique ideally wouldn't be used too much: notice against Kidoumarou (the spider guy) he ran out of chakra after using this technique multiple times.

Naruto was able to stand- up after being hit by the 64 -palm attack (my favorite technique btw :D) because knocking him out wasn't Neiji's aim, rather that technique blocked Naruto's circulatory system (hence sealing his chakra). This is because Neiji wanted Naruto to surrender (the logical choice as Naruto's chakra's been sealed) the fight and in so doing prove the supremacy (and Naruto's conscious acknowledgement) of Neiji's philosophy. Ofcourse he didn't know about Naruto's determination and the Fox inside him :P

[BlackKingofLords]

Hello, I am the Black King. In truth, I am many things- a child, a man, a sage, an elder- but above all, I am a servant of the world. As a question my own existence and try to find the answer to the world around me, I look into other things in hope to find a deeper meaning behind them. Naruto being on of those things.

As I look into it, I have found that there are many mysteries behind the workings of the Naruto Universe. Not just the blatant past that came to be Naruto, but the workings the chakra and the meaning behind the question "What is a Ninja?" As a philosopher... No, as a Servant of the World, I try to search for these answers through truth and research.

I am Black King, Servant of the World. Read my message and help me find the truth behind all things.

The Workings of Chakra

A very intriguing thing to put into an anime. Chakra is naturally the energy of the mind and body combined. The amount of training and meditation a person does a day adds up to create a certain amount of Chakra.

This is a good reference to Yin and Yang. I never realized this until a person wrote it down in a thread and made me begin to think about the concept once again. It disgraces me as a taoist and a Servant to have forgotten about this rule of life, this very truthful rule of life. One cannot exist without the other, this is the concept behind Yin and Yang.

2 become 1 and vice versa; Chakra is born from two halfs: Body (Yang) and Mind (Yin), and splits off back into the two seperately. After learning this, one can now understand the workings of the more complex jutsu. Using hand seals as a medium, the chakra is expressed through composing it elementally and spatially to become something powerful. Saying that, you can understand the chakra needed to form such an art.

Simply, to make a jutsu, you need to use a certain amout of yin and yang chakra, then change that chakra into the element it corresponds to, and finally mold it to your advantage. I'll use fire jutsu as an example; to be able to use fire jutsu, you must have trained your body to become the movement of the fire. Flames depending on oxygen in order to burn, without oxygen, they will simply snuff out. When using fire jutsu, the chakra is concentrated in the lungs and released as you breathe and exhale, thus creating the flame. In this case, you have trained your body, creating a dominant yang, to imitate the flame. Your breathe creates the movement of the flame (two solid lines) while you remain still and focus only on continuing the flame's movement (one broken line).

Of course, this leads to the discussion of Elemental and Spatial Composition. A very simple subject really, elemental composition is the able to form your chakra into its corresponding element depending on the composition of your yin and yang chakra, while spatial composition is how you manipulate the chakra. A simple subject, nothing really much to discuss here.

Now, there are many jutsu that can't be easily explained, one in particular being Hiraishin no Jutsu, one that I find very intriguing. But the final question that pretains to this particular subject is "What is the Ultimate Jutsu?" Truthfully, I can't say for sure. There are multiple powerful jutsu that continue to be more powerful the more they appear. I'll leave the question of the Ultimate Jutsu up for debate and allow you to converse on which jutsu is truly the strongest.


There will be more to discuss with you. As for now, you can discuss about anything about the above subject. There is one rule you must follow: there is no room for ingnorance nor is there room for reckless arguing. If you state something, but have nothing to support it, we will kindly provide evidence for you. If you have a question, we will gladly answer it. If you don't agree with something that someone has stated, don't argue and be rude, simply ask that person a question about their statement and provide evidence to prove otherwise.

Our next subject will be about the Jutsu Types: Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, Doujutsu, and others.

[FallenMalazan]

I mostly have a problem with your megalomaniac way of adressing yourself.
I don't mind if you chuck me up with the ignorant who don't belong here for saying this.

The ultimate Jutsu ofcourse doesn't exist.

[Chidokage]

http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=16406&highlight=
chakra i think theres a thread discussing chakra, already.

i also think theres a thread discussing the narutoverse i.e. tai/gen/ninjutsu.
lol thanks for the long post though really.

nice that ur using naruto to find deeper meaning to your life... ( no sarcasm intended).. Really

i have a feeling ur gona have some uhh.. interesting posts in the future.

EDIT: this post still looks sarcastic . no offence intended

[Cyberpr0]

If you really want to find the truth behind everything, i think that a Ph.d. in physics, psychology, biology or medicine would be a good start to contribute to the understandings any rational human has and will have of 'the truth'.

[Sleaw]

And another tip - just to be helpful, of course - if you want to interact with other people, try to talk normally. We're all humans. :) Thanks!

Edit: I nearly forgot. Welcome to the Internet.

[TheEvilOne]

Just a simple question:
What chakra type would you contorl and why??
(This includes combinations like sand, ice, lava and tree)

[IchimaruGin13]

fire ftw!

[zaffe]

wind.

because it can cut through everyone and is incredible fast.

release chakra wind around ur body = ftw

[Graeystone]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_fire_an_element

Technically fire is not an 'element' but it's fantasy so who cares.

[gaara17]

wind & lightning two strong elements and if combined probably makes Light element.
light speed travel/attacks, invisibilty etc

[Yoshimo Izoto]

Wind and lightning do not make light...They make the "Storm" element...

Really, idk what the eff is up with Kishimoto, he even used the Kanji for storm....so how that equals light...

[xcluesiv1]

If could get two elements it would obviously be something i could combine to make another element. I really like the Ice element, I still think demon Ice mirrors was one of the strongest jutsu's. But I would proberly want to make the lava element combine-n Fire and eart. U could make a pretty good defense out of it.

As for what I think of the strongest Jutsu's...
I hard to say because the most destructive jutsu's either harm the user or take up too much prepartion. (kirin) At the end of the day theres no clear top jutsu because everyones different and likes a certain fighting style.
Me in perticular I perfer sneak attacks and defense. So I lean alot more to space/time jutsu. I would rank my top jutsu's as
1) Madara s/t
2)Minato S/T
3)Oro's Kage Summon
4)Demon Ice Mirrors

***Note I didnt say Susanoo or Gedo Mazo because the cost of the jutsu is too high for me.

[gaara17]

Wind and lightning do not make light...They make the "Storm" element...

Really, idk what the eff is up with Kishimoto, he even used the Kanji for storm....so how that equals light...

i didnt say it makes light, i said it probably makes light.anyway whatever makes light is my element

[Graeystone]

wind & lightning two strong elements and if combined probably makes Light element.
light speed travel/attacks, invisibilty etc
But wouldn't those be 'space/time' jutsus?

[gaara17]

i have no idea but i class it as light element, speed of light can pretty much teleport, so it could be classed as space/time jutsu

[Darkest Link]

I believe I remember Yamato also saying there is a light and dark element on its own, I assume the Uchiha trait is that of fire and darkness (Amaterasu is where I got this idea along with the Uchihas dark history and fire element. Also it would make sense for the "darkness" to make you blind) while the Hyuuga trait is that of water and light (I got this idea from the fact that your eyes use light to see and Hinata training with water...also its the opposite of the Uchihas if I am right about that)

[roxas_strife]

Pardon me if this has already been addressed on this forum, but this is a theory on the Mizukage as seeing as she is the prime example. It has to do with dominant and recessive qualities, but by applying the logic to chakkra natures. I noticed that the Mizukage has the necessary chakkra natures to perform wood release, but does not claim to be capable. My theory is that chakkra natures have a recessive and dominant quality to them, in the case of the Mizukage, I would say her fire nature is her dominant nature because both of her KGs involve the fire element, meaning her water and earth elements are more recessive. I'm not saying that water and earth always have a recessive quality, but that in the case of the Mizukage they do. What this dominant and recessive quality could mean is that there is a reverse release for every elemental KG. Like say the wood release, it could be primarily earth nature and secondary water, while the reverse would be mud release. This is just conjecture, but I don't feel like it is totally baseless. What is everybody's thoughts?

[CasaHouse]

This actually makes sense. Might want to kick it into the Chakra thread though.

http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=16406

[roxas_strife]

The discussion there is almost too broad, so instead of posting it there I posted it here so I could get more feedback. Also, because this could fall under Kekkai Genkai discussion I decided to just post it as a specified thread. I'll look more at that thread though just to see if it has anything I missed that might reinforce the logic.

[titantron91]

Naruto Elements

- Fire
- Wind
- Lightning
- Earth
- Water
- Wood (Earth+Water)
- Ice (Water+Wind)
- Lava (Fire+Earth)
- Boil (Water+Fire)

The Storm Release as Lightning+Water is not yet really confirmed, so we can't take it as fact.
The Dust Release as Earth+Wind is not yet really confirmed, so we can't take it as fact.

I have speculations

Storm (Lightning+Wind)
Dust (Earth+Wind)
Metal (Earth+Lightning) ====> metal, conducts electricity, sharper
Heatwave/Steam (Wind+Fire) ===> explosive/very hot gusts of wind
Flash/Spark (Fire+Lightning) ====> solid fire/burning lightning, can be shaped
Bubble (Water+Lightning) ===> light projectiles that pops and causes electrical shocks

[JonoRoxLol]

Naruto Elements

- Fire
- Wind
- Lightning
- Earth
- Water
- Wood (Earth+Water)
- Ice (Water+Wind)
- Lava (Fire+Earth)
- Boil (Water+Fire)

The Storm Release as Lightning+Water is not yet really confirmed, so we can't take it as fact.
The Dust Release as Earth+Wind is not yet really confirmed, so we can't take it as fact.

I have speculations

Storm (Lightning+Wind)
Dust (Earth+Wind)
Metal (Earth+Lightning) ====> metal, conducts electricity, sharper
Heatwave/Steam (Wind+Fire) ===> explosive/very hot gusts of wind
Flash/Spark (Fire+Lightning) ====> solid fire/burning lightning, can be shaped
Bubble (Water+Lightning) ===> light projectiles that pops and causes electrical shocks

where did you get the info on Naruto's elements?
Also, Water/wind = bubbles ._.
blow into water, what do oyu get :)?

[Psychokinetix]

Hurricane = Wind + Water ?

[WraithX959]

Naruto Elements

- Fire
- Wind
- Lightning
- Earth
- Water
- Wood (Earth+Water)
- Ice (Water+Wind)
- Lava (Fire+Earth)
- Boil (Water+Fire)

The Storm Release as Lightning+Water is not yet really confirmed, so we can't take it as fact.
The Dust Release as Earth+Wind is not yet really confirmed, so we can't take it as fact.

I have speculations

Storm (Lightning+Wind)
Dust (Earth+Wind)
Metal (Earth+Lightning) ====> metal, conducts electricity, sharper
Heatwave/Steam (Wind+Fire) ===> explosive/very hot gusts of wind
Flash/Spark (Fire+Lightning) ====> solid fire/burning lightning, can be shaped
Bubble (Water+Lightning) ===> light projectiles that pops and causes electrical shocks

Storm release is pretty much confirmed to be lightning + water, Darui has only been shown using those two elements, he also has those two specific elements tattoed on his arms.

Dust is unconfirmed, but it is also most likely wind & earth.

Hurricane = Wind + Water ?

Nope, it's ice until it's confirmed whether or not mutiple fusions can be derived from the same elemental combination.

[ehm029]

I go for bubbles, imagine a shinobi blowing bubbles just like spongebob! :D

[gaara17]

steam would be water/fire, boil water and steam is made

[Masamune]

Storm release is pretty much confirmed to be lightning + water, Darui has only been shown using those two elements, he also has those two specific elements tattoed on his arms.

How exactly did this get confirmed?

[SchwarzeWolke]

I didn´t read the whole 18 pages so don´t be too rough to me.

What affinity is Shikamarus shadow jutsu?
Or would you count the bugs from the Aburame-Clan to earth?

[Yoshimo Izoto]

How exactly did this get confirmed?

By reading the manga. The tattoos on his arm are basically look-a-likes of the Kanji for water and lightning.

[Masamune]

By reading the manga. The tattoos on his arm are basically look-a-likes of the Kanji for water and lightning.

Still don't see how that means raiton + suiton = hurricane release (shipputon?).

[roxas_strife]

I go for bubbles, imagine a shinobi blowing bubbles just like spongebob! :D

Actually, there is a shinobi who uses bubbles. His name is Utakata(source: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tailed_beasts). He's the container for the 6-tails. It's not addressed as the bubble release, so it's hard to say whether or not it is the reverse of the water+wind ice combination. Naruto wiki is a damn good site for this kind of stuff.

A friend and I conceived a bunch of reverses and possible explanations for combinations we haven't gotten any info on really. This is just a list of our theories and what has been confirmed, but the confirmed ones will have our theory on which element is more dominant and which is more recessive on there. I don't believe there is a new element or reverse for every nature combination.

Confirmed
Wood= Earth and Water
Ice= Water and Wind
Lava= Fire and Earth
Boil= Fire and Water
(I do not believe there is any reverse for lava or boil release, and the reasoning behind the dominant nature being fire for the two is because fire was the only one involved in both for that individual, unless she can suddenly use wood release later on. :/)

Theorized
Mud= Water and Earth
Bubble= Wind and Water
Storm= Water and Lightning (the reasoning here is that the lightning would come second because it would need the water to already be there in order for it to form the current that is the basis of the release that we have seen thus far)
Thunder= Wind and Lightning(another one I do not believe there is a reverse for)
Dust= Wind and Earth
Magnet= Earth and Lightning (the reasoning here is similar to that of storm in that the lightning element must come second because it would need something to induce the magnetism in, and I don't believe this one has a reverse)

I don't know what to think of Gara's technique yet, but my most favored theory is that it is the reverse release of dust seeing as it is more earth oriented in the examples we have seen thus far.

The reasoning behind the hurricane release is flawed because hurricanes don't always have lightning. The storm release, which is what Darui called it, is much more logical because it explains everything perfectly. Channeled lightning through water. I think it would be more appropriately called bolt release, but that's just me. Seeing as lightning is only visible because of the plasma in it and plasma is liquid like in nature. xD

There are some combinations I didn't address, but only because I don't have anything to go off of with them really.

Heatwave/Steam (Wind+Fire) ===> explosive/very hot gusts of wind
Flash/Spark (Fire+Lightning) ====> solid fire/burning lightning, can be shaped
Bubble (Water+Lightning) ===> light projectiles that pops and causes electrical shocks

Those ideas all sound silly to me.

[Masamune]

The reasoning behind the hurricane release is flawed because hurricanes don't always have lightning. The storm release, which is what Darui called it, is much more logical because it explains everything perfectly. Channeled lightning through water. I think it would be more appropriately called bolt release, but that's just me. Seeing as lightning is only visible because of the plasma in it and plasma is liquid like in nature. xD


Well, this explains a lot.

[Sore920]

steam would be water/fire, boil water and steam is made

If you have standing water, and light a fire under it, you get boiling water. If you have a heated surface, then drip water onto it, you get steam.


So both are Water+fire, but the dominant chakra type decides outcome.

In my opinion.

If you didn't guess, I'm the one roxas talks to.

[roxas_strife]

If you have standing water, and light a fire under it, you get boiling water. If you have a heated surface, then drip water onto it, you get steam.


So both are Water+fire, but the dominant chakra type decides outcome.

In my opinion.

If you didn't guess, I'm the one roxas talks to.

I agree with you on the behavior of the Boil release varying due to the dominant nature of the two.

I was also thinking perhaps the mud release could be extended to a clay release.

[Sore920]

http://i33.tinypic.com/n5mov7.jpg


This is the chart I've made to plot the future releases, and possible releases.

It's incomplete, but it makes sense.



The Dominant chakra is the chakra nature that is being acted on. While the additional chakra is being added.

EX: Dominant water chakra would become boil with additional fire chakra. Imagine boiling a pot of water. Ta-dah. Now, if you flip it. You have a hot skillet, and then you fling drops of water on it. You get steam. Dominant fire and additional water chakra.

Just thought I'd leave this here. See whatcha think.


EDIT: "natural" natures are there as a place holder. I based it on when Sasuke fought Itachi, he had to use nature to get the desired effect and power. Combined with his own chakra lightning, he uses the natural lightning to make Kirin. I figured it would work the same with other base five releases.

[Zahd]

why is lighting a deferent element it should be in the group of fire cuz when lightning hits something like a tree it produces fire

there only should be four element of fire , water , earth , air

Untrue- lightning is also electricity, and has different effects when projected through the water, through the earth, through the wind, or anything else. It has the ability to produce fire, but that doesn't make it fire in itself.

If you look at it that way, why is there an ice type genaki when water is ice in a liquid form?
----------------------------------


Btw Sore, I think Earth + Wind = Sand || Also, its been already discussed in the Manga that Water + Wind = Ice

[Sore920]

Untrue- lightning is also electricity, and has different effects when projected through the water, through the earth, through the wind, or anything else. It has the ability to produce fire, but that doesn't make it fire in itself.

If you look at it that way, why is there an ice type genaki when water is ice in a liquid form?
----------------------------------


Btw Sore, I think Earth + Wind = Sand || Also, its been already discussed in the Manga that Water + Wind = Ice

You need to read my post and look at the chart better.

I know that, and both of those are on the list, check it. It's just that a different combo for earth and wind is dust possibly. And the same fore Water+Wind = bubble.

Read my post and you'll get it.

[aladdin]

On Chakra and the Soul:

I run 4 miles every other day, and while running I tend to allow myself to drift, and sometimes I reach the end of my route without remembering how I got there :P This is what I was thinking about today:

The observation made by the Hachibi that its chakra was almost completely depleted by Samehada was kind of nagging at me. There is something that needs to be addressed, I believe.

This discussion is purely academic and has no bearing on Naruto events, so if that is what you are looking for then perhaps you do not need to proceed further :)

I would like first to layout the pieces of the puzzle and then attempt to make sense of them. So here we go:

- We have known all along the bijuu or tailed beasts are made entirely of chakra, and recently Kishimoto broke out the news to us, via Madara, that the tailed beats were in fact one entity called the Juubi, which chakra was split into 9 portions of varying magnitudes, thus becoming the known tailed beasts.

- We know each tailed beast has its distinct personality and elemental attributes and so on. They are distinct entities with a distinct consciousness for each.

- We know that Shiki Fujin, or the death god sealing technique, seals the soul of the target along with the soul of the caster into its belly, where they struggle with each other for all eternity. In other words, even after they are sealed, their distinct personalities remain.

- We know that the same above mentioned technique can be used to seal chakra; Minato used it to seal the yin chakra of the Kyubi along with his own soul.

- We know the full nine dragon sealing technique can be used to extract a bijuu from its jinchuuriki and seal it in Gedo Mazo.

- We know, from the explanation Fukasaku gave to Naruto, that chakra is generated normally from the physical and spiritual energy of a ninja, and in a sage we add natural energy to the mix. This is similar to how an internal combustion engine burns a mixture of fuel and oxygen to create controlled explosions that generate kinetic energy.

- We know that once chakra is totally depleted a ninja dies.

- We know that chakra entities can acquire physical bodies; this was demonstrated by both bijuu and shadow clones.

- According to Wikipedia: "The soul, in many religions, spiritual traditions, and philosophies, is the spiritual or eternal part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; distinct from the body's physical matter. It is typically thought to consist of one's consciousness and personality, and is roughly synonymous with the spirit, mind or self."

Observations and questions:

If Kisame were to defeat Killer Bee as he is now, with the Hachibi in such a low chakra state, and lug him to Madara for extraction and sealing, the Hachibi would still be at a very low chakra level. Consequently extracting may be easier since the remaining Akatsuki won't have to generate chakra equal to the full enormous chakra of the Hachibi to extract it, but then again what they do actually seal is a tiny fraction of its maximum level chakra.

Once the chakra of the Hachibi is sealed, does it mix with the chakra of the other sealed bijuu and lose its personality? or does it retain its personality and regenerate its chakra even while sealed? if it is the first then the entire collected chakra of the 7 or 8 bijuu thus far is much lower than the total of the maximum chakra of each of those bijuu. This obviously is not good for Madara.

Alternatively, if the collective mixed chakra strives to regenerate to the maximum total chakra, why would this happen? Would the total chakra of all sealed bijuu become a single entity with a single essence and personality?

On the other hand, each bijuu could remain distinct inside Gedo Mazo regenerating its lost chakra.

I assume the yin chakra of the Kyubi sealed within the shinigami remains distinct from all the other souls sealed therein.

Do those bijuu, in fact, have souls? Logic dictates according to the definition of a soul I quoted above that they do. If this is the case, at what point did the chakra portions of the Juubi created by Rikudo Sennin acquire consciousness and personality, i.e. soul? Is it something the Sannin did? or does this occur naturally? that once chakra is separated it becomes a distinct entity and acquires a soul?

Shadow clones do not seem to be distinct; it is as if the person and his consciousness is split into as many shadow clones as he/she creates, which is why once dispersed all there experiences are transferred to the original, but nonetheless shadow clones are entities that contain the personality and consciousness of the original, i.e. even in this case the chakra that is a shadow clone becomes more or less a living being, albeit not distinct.

I am not sure whether I made sense. Comments and observations would be welcome.

[Yoshimo Izoto]

On Chakra and the Soul:

I run 4 miles every other day, and while running I tend to allow myself to drift, and sometimes I reach the end of my route without remembering how I got there :P This is what I was thinking about today:

The observation made by the Hachibi that its chakra was almost completely depleted by Samehada was kind of nagging at me. There is something that needs to be addressed, I believe.

This discussion is purely academic and has no bearing on Naruto events, so if that is what you are looking for then perhaps you do not need to proceed further :)

I would like first to layout the pieces of the puzzle and then attempt to make sense of them. So here we go:

- We have known all along the bijuu or tailed beasts are made entirely of chakra, and recently Kishimoto broke out the news to us, via Madara, that the tailed beats were in fact one entity called the Juubi, which chakra was split into 9 portions of varying magnitudes, thus becoming the known tailed beasts.

- We know each tailed beast has its distinct personality and elemental attributes and so on. They are distinct entities with a distinct consciousness for each.

- We know that Shiki Fujin, or the death god sealing technique, seals the soul of the target along with the soul of the caster into its belly, where they struggle with each other for all eternity. In other words, even after they are sealed, their distinct personalities remain.

- We know that the same above mentioned technique can be used to seal chakra; Minato used it to seal the yin chakra of the Kyubi along with his own soul.

- We know the full nine dragon sealing technique can be used to extract a bijuu from its jinchuuriki and seal it in Gedo Mazo.

- We know, from the explanation Fukasaku gave to Naruto, that chakra is generated normally from the physical and spiritual energy of a ninja, and in a sage we add natural energy to the mix. This is similar to how an internal combustion engine burns a mixture of fuel and oxygen to create controlled explosions that generate kinetic energy.

- We know that once chakra is totally depleted a ninja dies.

- We know that chakra entities can acquire physical bodies; this was demonstrated by both bijuu and shadow clones.

- According to Wikipedia: "The soul, in many religions, spiritual traditions, and philosophies, is the spiritual or eternal part of a living being, commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; distinct from the body's physical matter. It is typically thought to consist of one's consciousness and personality, and is roughly synonymous with the spirit, mind or self."

Observations and questions:

If Kisame were to defeat Killer Bee as he is now, with the Hachibi in such a low chakra state, and lug him to Madara for extraction and sealing, the Hachibi would still be at a very low chakra level. Consequently extracting may be easier since the remaining Akatsuki won't have to generate chakra equal to the full enormous chakra of the Hachibi to extract it, but then again what they do actually seal is a tiny fraction of its maximum level chakra.

Once the chakra of the Hachibi is sealed, does it mix with the chakra of the other sealed bijuu and lose its personality? or does it retain its personality and regenerate its chakra even while sealed? if it is the first then the entire collected chakra of the 7 or 8 bijuu thus far is much lower than the total of the maximum chakra of each of those bijuu. This obviously is not good for Madara.

Alternatively, if the collective mixed chakra strives to regenerate to the maximum total chakra, why would this happen? Would the total chakra of all sealed bijuu become a single entity with a single essence and personality?

On the other hand, each bijuu could remain distinct inside Gedo Mazo regenerating its lost chakra.

I assume the yin chakra of the Kyubi sealed within the shinigami remains distinct from all the other souls sealed therein.

Do those bijuu, in fact, have souls? Logic dictates according to the definition of a soul I quoted above that they do. If this is the case, at what point did the chakra portions of the Juubi created by Rikudo Sennin acquire consciousness and personality, i.e. soul? Is it something the Sannin did? or does this occur naturally? that once chakra is separated it becomes a distinct entity and acquires a soul?

Shadow clones do not seem to be distinct; it is as if the person and his consciousness is split into as many shadow clones as he/she creates, which is why once dispersed all there experiences are transferred to the original, but nonetheless shadow clones are entities that contain the personality and consciousness of the original, i.e. even in this case the chakra that is a shadow clone becomes more or less a living being, albeit not distinct.

I am not sure whether I made sense. Comments and observations would be welcome.

You put so much effort into this and I feel bad for not typing enough lol :p

I agree with all the questions/observations you have made. You've opened up some serious plausible plot holes in Naruto. However, since Kishimoto hasn't explained them yet, I don't think he will anytime much sooner. (Seeing as how the plot is going. I really don't see any time being dedicated to have someone sit down and explain all this due to the up coming war)

You're right about the Juubi/Personality thing. Will the Juubi have Multiple Personality Disorder? Lol but, I understand what you're saying. Let's hope a new databook explains this all to us, because these questions need to be answered.

Superior analysis aladdin. I feel like I need to brush up on my skills a bit.

[aladdin]

Well thank you :) I had this feeling though that my post would not intrigue many people, but I needed to get this out anyway :P

[Dragonian]

@aladdin

Interesting stuff aladdin.

I believe that it is obvious by now that Kishimoto considers the balance of Yin/Yang the basic form of structure of everything in the Narutoverse.There are countless references and even the main protagonists of the story appear to be symbols of these 2 elements that counter each other.

I believe that the meaning of the word "soul" into the world of Naruto is defined by the type of balance between Yin/Yang.These 2 elements are followed as we know by attributes.Depending on the form of their balance,these attributes are being expressed to a minimum,to a maximum,with slight variations,or not at all.

I do not say that soul is chakra.Chakra is visible,it has the ability to be expressed by different elemental affinities,soul does not.It is the outcome of the synthesis of the attributes that follow Yin and Yang.

What we saw being extracted from Orochimaru's body although it was stated that it was his soul,it was his chakra.Soul cannot be extracted in the first place.For that to happen it would require the possibility of the distinguish of these 2, something that is impossible,simply because soul is the character of chakra,therefore it always follows it.

Where am i going with all these stuff.

What Rikudo did was almost a miracle.He broke an entity into several pieces and with these pieces as material he created new ones.He displaced god,he acted as a god.

Based on what i have said about chakra and soul,there is only one way that Rikudo could do such a thing.He had to divide the chakra of Juubi into Yin and Yang,and then abstract quantities reforming new types of balance,and at last new souls.

We know though that Yin cannot exist without the Yang and conversely.This gives us the answer how he did it.Somehow he was able to abstract pieces from both, the Yin and the Yang chakra of Juubi and instantly fuse them together.This is an unknown technique so far and it appears that is needed for the opposite procedure as well,that of the ultimate fusion of the pieces.

About Bijuus and the extraction.Akatsuki capture Jiinchuriki's by forcing them into exhaustion.I believe this is necessary not only for practical reasons of the capturing but for the sealing itself.The chakra of the Bijuu is indeed forced to almost fade and this is what makes the sealing possible.

The procedure of the sealing is supposed to work as:balancing the chakra of the Bijuu in order to force the chakra to be extracted from the host.So basically the chakra must not be equal to the chakra of the Bijuu but greater in order to force it leave the body.Furthermore it seems that it also reshapes the chakra http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/261/15/ .It is like a fluid here,something that shows its weakened state.

The chakra can regenerate,so yes the Bijuu regenerates after it has been sealed into Gedo Mazo.I do not believe that it fuses with the chakra of the other Bijuu's though.Since Minato needed a technique to separate Yin from the Yang,and probably Rikudo also,this means that chakra cannot react with each other without someone pulling the trigger.The fusion is the exact opposite of the separation but they are probably based on the same rules.Madara will have to use something else to fuse the Bijuu's inside Gedo Mazo.I wonder if syncing Sasuke is the way to do it.

[giriyasama]

hmmm...if gedo mazo can contain so much chakra--if all the beasts are stored inside..wouldn't the jubi be formed and tear open gedo mazo---or gedo mazo is totally spiritual..
the rinnegan bearer is so strong and his chakra must be huge and how is his chakra inclined to every element...

[Valeriy-Cocovich]

Lightning+Water=Ranton(Storm release)

[ConquestAce]

Would a combination of fire and water element be possible??

[Yoshimo Izoto]

Would a combination of fire and water element be possible??

Ever heard of the Boil Element? Futton?

[ConquestAce]

Ever heard of the Boil Element? Futton?

expect for boiling and steam

[Yoshimo Izoto]

expect for boiling and steam

Now I don't understand your question.

Would a combination of fire and water element be possible??

Yes it is possible.

Elements that win over one another can still be combined. Like Earth and Water to make wood. Or acid.

[aladdin]

@ Dragonian: Excellent ideas my friend, and in fact your post addresses some of the issues I wanted further to add, such once the Juubi chakra was split, and new entities were created what determined the kind of personality or intelligence level each bijuu had? is it the amount of chakra in each or the yin/yang composition or a combination of both or something else entirely?

Also we know chakra regenerates in corpireal beings thanks to a combination of rest and food, which replenish stamina, thus regenerating chakra. Energy conservation dictates energy has to come from somewhere.

In bijuus however this rule seems to be broken.

[vixid]

Why does everyone says Earth+Water makes Acid? It makes no sense...
Here is the description of each element from the data book

Fire: Burns everything it touches, a high temperature chakra that is like fire. Can burn objects and like the wind element, it is a specialised offensive type of chakra.

Wind: A chakra that cuts through everything like a blade. When used on special ninja weapons or deployed in jutsu, it is best for short to middle distance offensive attacks.

Lightning: Easy to spread out and suitable for jutsu that are middle to long distance in offense. When used with metal based weapons, the effects get multiplied!

Earth: Has the ability to change the hardness and composition of all objects. A person who masters this element can make an object to be as solid as metal or soft as clay in his jutsu.

Water: It is very compatible the diverse "Form Modification". Whether it is in the form of a fog for masking your form or to trap someone in a tsunami, its auxilliary capability is very high.

So if we take Acid: It burns things and can change its form (acid mist) so it's clearly water+fire

[boyinblue]

Why does everyone says Earth+Water makes Acid? It makes no sense...
Here is the description of each element from the data book

Fire: Burns everything it touches, a high temperature chakra that is like fire. Can burn objects and like the wind element, it is a specialised offensive type of chakra.

Wind: A chakra that cuts through everything like a blade. When used on special ninja weapons or deployed in jutsu, it is best for short to middle distance offensive attacks.

Lightning: Easy to spread out and suitable for jutsu that are middle to long distance in offense. When used with metal based weapons, the effects get multiplied!

Earth: Has the ability to change the hardness and composition of all objects. A person who masters this element can make an object to be as solid as metal or soft as clay in his jutsu.

Water: It is very compatible the diverse "Form Modification". Whether it is in the form of a fog for masking your form or to trap someone in a tsunami, its auxilliary capability is very high.

So if we take Acid: It burns things and can change its form (acid mist) so it's clearly water+fire

I wonder why they would think that. Yamato uses earth and water to make wood so where do they get acid from...hmm go figure:facepalm:. It might have to do with the unique kekkei genkai's that are inherited through bloodline...I guess that the boiling, acid mist the mizukage uses is achieved because of her ability to use 3 elements: Fire,Water,Earth.

[vixid]

If we use this for the other special elements we at least narrow down the possibilities.
Known Elements
Wood: can change form and is hardness so it fits Earth+Water

Ice: can change form and it cuts so Water+Wind

Lava: burns and can change hardness so Earth+Fire

Acid: Fire+Water



Now for possible elements

Sand:it crushes people... but since Shukaku has wind, we can consider the crushing as a lot of small cuts (F:rasengan has about the same effect) and it can change hardness i think it's Earth+Wind.

Ironsand: it involves metal, it spreads easily and it cuts stuff so i would say Wind+Lightning, but it could be any combination of water, wind, earth and lightning.

Paper: It can be easily spread around and can change form so I'd say Water+Lightning

[ArSoNiSt JoE]

What about Water and Earth ?? MUD maybe???

[vixid]

What about Water and Earth ?? MUD maybe???

Mud, bubbles,exploding flames and electric water aren't new elements but direct combinations of elements... actually mud is just doton, no combination.

[shichiyou7]

What about Water and Earth ?? MUD maybe???

Hmmm...didn't the 3rd actually use mud walls and mudslides? I reckon I did assume it was water and earth, actually...

[vixid]

Hmmm...didn't the 3rd actually use mud walls and mudslides? I reckon I did assume it was water and earth, actually...

He used an earth wall, no mudslide... but earth element is about making things harder or softer so mud is just soft earth.

[Yoshimo Izoto]

Just because Water and Wind made Ice for Haku, doesn't mean it will make ice for someone else. You create a NEW element, so it won't be the same.

The Mizukage had two KKG. She had the Earth element, Water element and Fire element.

It's pretty obvious which two make boil element.

Unless she combines her Fire and Earth to make her Youton I'd say it's Earth and Water.

There was this whole translation debate when it came out, did the manga mean melt as in acid, or melt as in lava. The radicals in the kanji make the difference between water and fire, but they both kinda mean the same thing. I think the Mizukage received the Kanji for melt that had a water radical... As to why I think her Youton is Earth and water.



Correct me if I'm wrong.

[vixid]

Hmm not sure about this boil element.... doesn't she have Acid and Lava?

[Yoshimo Izoto]

No he has acid and boil. It's the part where she got Sasuke with Susano around.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/07/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/03/

Looks more like an acid to me. Lava would hit and burn and small fires would be created.

[boyinblue]

No he has acid and boil. It's the part where she got Sasuke with Susano around.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/07/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/03/

Looks more like an acid to me. Lava would hit and burn and small fires would be created.

Yoshimo there's a good reason why you think it's acid and that's because she stated that she can alter the acidity of the mist she releases using boil release
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Fifth_Mizukage

[strawhatsop_pirates]

maybe Water+Fire+Lightning=Weather (nami-One Piece)
Water+Earth=Quicksand: if s/o or sth step on, they will be melt & their chakra will be absorb. if user(s) is medical-nin, it will use to cure their wound& recover quickly
I wonder if sak can use that. i mean she can control water & earth element so that she can keep up Nar, Sas & Kakashi

[My December]

New thread here (http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?p=2794888#post2794888)